Tried Hands "FarmHands" no longer

Discussion in 'New England' started by SPRichard, Sep 2, 2013.

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  1. GRDave

    GRDave Crusader (407) Oct 7, 2011 Michigan

    The repeated "Please take the time to read our owner's response and consider both sides", on all of the tweets and FB posts doesn't sit well with me. I guess its the nature of the beast. You can't tailor a response to that many comments. But on the cynical side of me, it leaves a feeling of blatant damage control.
     
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  2. mjshearer1

    mjshearer1 Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2011 Michigan


    I read some of those as well, and I saw at least on Facebook, some of those people responded and said things like "I understand now" and "Thanks for the explanation", etc. Some people just got even more pissed. I feel if Vivant swayed from their standard response, it could potentially help someone understand more, but I think the more likely case is that the pissed people made up their mind to be pissed and any other response would get them into a flame war.

    I agree the circumstances suck. I do wish Vivant sought alternative solutions to the problem, but I can also see their desire to protect their vested interest as well. I've never had Tired Hands (you'll have to introduce me, Dave :slight_smile:) but I hear stellar things and want them to succeed, because their success means a better potential for me to try their stuff. I don't think a name change is going to hurt them in this area since, as they mentioned, it hasn't gotten to the point where they're distributing and all the sudden have to go through a re-branding, but it also still bothers me that Vivant does the same thing (Sgt. Peppercorn, Perdition, etc.)

    Blech. I need a beer too.
     
  3. xnicknj

    xnicknj Initiate (0) May 25, 2009 Pennsylvania


    Perhaps it is, but it's definitely better than no response at all. Some of the criticism on Twitter was way over the top too.
     
  4. HRamz3

    HRamz3 Initiate (0) Feb 9, 2010 Pitcairn
    Deactivated

    Ouch.. that put a really harsh spin on it.

    I think BV is going to have to make ammends by coming to Philly BeerWeek 2014!
     
  5. chriscostanzo

    chriscostanzo Initiate (0) Mar 3, 2012 Pennsylvania


    They may not be mutually exclusive but being or even embarking on being a strong marketing business, branded business etc. is how I believe a brewery loses at least some of what a craft beer drinker is looking for, i.e. great beer. Obviously to do so, some of the attention is diverted to marketing and building a brand. We have all seen it before, hence the opinion. Do we know of any breweries that are marketing machines and make great beer? Another reason a lot of people are turned off by breweries going big or relatively big is because sometimes the beers don't seem to scale up well. Some things just seem to taste better in small batch. I think that is also why craft beer drinkers are always on the look out for signs that a brewery may be making a shift to go big. Look a brewery can do whatever it wants. Personally I'm just not into the legalistic and money game when it comes to the craft - it just makes it less interesting to me. But that's all just an opinion.
     
  6. Starkbier

    Starkbier Initiate (0) Sep 19, 2002 Maryland

    I think Jason's response was very reasonable and well thought out. This type of issue becomes a much bigger deal once you are a packaging brewery with bottled beers in the trade. Its not like one brewer was forced to trash a ton of developed and paid for packaging since the brewpub had not gotten to that phase yet.
     
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  7. kdb150

    kdb150 Initiate (0) Mar 8, 2012 Pennsylvania

    True, but sending a C&D letter when there isn't actually any likelihood of confusion is a dick move. That's what it boils down to. I fully support the rights of Vivant to enforce their trademarks, but I don't support their actions to assert a claim of trademark infringement where one doesn't exist.

    There are other tactics you can use to prove that you are defending your legal rights without sending a C&D and threatening a lawsuit. For starters, they could have sent a letter advising Tired Hands of the similarity of the names, of Vivant's priority claim to the trademark, and of the fact that in the event of future market overlap, Vivant will sue.

    So it seems they did do that first, in an email. OK, not exactly the best way to communicate regarding trademark matters; it could have ended up in their spam folder for all anyone knows, but fine. They still crossed the line, and this press release badly misstates what happened. An isolated incident does not mean that "confusion in the marketplace has begun." There is still no overlap. Transporting something out-of-market where it causes confusion is not a basis for trademark infringement as far as I know.
     
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  8. mjshearer1

    mjshearer1 Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2011 Michigan

    New statement from Vivant:

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10151669724372336&id=309421567335
     
  9. leftmindedrighty

    leftmindedrighty Initiate (0) Jun 18, 2006 New Jersey

    Everyone needs to let this horse fucking die already.

    Tired Hands is awesome. They never responded to an e-mail that could have possibly resolved this without a C&D. Whatever. They will continue to brew awesome beer. A name is just a name. The beer speaks.

    Vivant sent a letter, a fucking letter. Not 12 guys in Brooks Bros suits, saying they owned the trademark and to change the name. They brew good beer too, and wanted to protect their work of building a brand. Again, they tried to reach out before resulting to a C&D.

    Beer people in general, and BA people especially, should read up on Trademark laws and not take any side or form any opinion until then.

    Also, this has jack shit to do with any of us. Do you own Tired Hands or Vivant stock? No? Then continue to support good beer, and good people who brew good beer. Leave the business side to people who understand that, well, this is a fucking business.

    Sorry for the expletives. This has just gotten way out of control with people who are speaking with their liver and not their common sense.
     
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  10. maximum12

    maximum12 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,662) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Kind of like saying "Let it die but I'm going to respond so it pops back to the top?" or "I know tons about business & you're a bunch of morons because I don't agree with you?" Fascinating.

    Despite your obviously rabid belief, your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else who's offered one in this thread. You don't want to read about people talking about every aspect of beer (from the mildly important to the insanely stupid & inane & trivial), perhaps you should join KnittingAdvocate.com. Until then. you're just going to have to put up with us unwashed dumbasses of inferior brainpower.
     
  11. kdb150

    kdb150 Initiate (0) Mar 8, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Well, genius, I do know something about trademark law. I also know that in running a business with as much competition as exists in the craft beer world, you better not go around sending C&D letters unless there is an actual threat to your business.

    I'm wondering if you actually know how lawyering works. Sending a C&D letter doesn't just send a letter. It necessitates the receiver of the letter to go seek legal advice on how to respond to the letter. This costs money. Startup breweries, even really successful ones, and especially ones seeking to expand, don't have a lot of spare capital to throw around responding to C&D letters. So sending one prematurely is a dick move that has a real impact on the recipient.

    Whining that Tired Hands didn't respond to an email is ludicrous. Vivant doesn't claim to have done any follow-up to the email prior to sending the C&D, a C&D where the law almost certainly is NOT on their side. They couldn't have sent an actual letter or picked up the phone?
     
  12. RocketFrogDavid

    RocketFrogDavid Initiate (0) Apr 29, 2010 Virginia

    I've been to both breweries, they both make excellent beer, and I have to say, BV makes the best poutine I've ever had. (This has nothing to do with trademarks.)
     
  13. gregkoko

    gregkoko Initiate (0) Mar 12, 2010 New York

    Man I could go for some poutine
     
  14. maximum12

    maximum12 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,662) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Thanks, I had to go look up poutine. Now I'm hungry.
     
  15. Franch

    Franch Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 District of Columbia

    then fuck it, keep brewing. kdb150 said so.
     
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  16. chcfan

    chcfan Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2008 California

    That sucks, but does anyone know their growler policy?
     
  17. xnicknj

    xnicknj Initiate (0) May 25, 2009 Pennsylvania


    They will only fill clear 750mL screw tops that say "Indian Wells Brewing Co." on them.
     
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  18. callmemickey

    callmemickey Initiate (0) Aug 12, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Do they use hoses and bottom fill?
     
  19. Theshagger

    Theshagger Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Will th set aside farmhands for believers club members?
     
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  20. Steve_Oldrati

    Steve_Oldrati Initiate (0) Nov 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    A comment on Tired Hand's Facebook page the other day was a recommendation of "Saison and Desist" as the new name. I would drink the shit outta that.
     
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