Winter Hoppy Saison Recipe critique

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by bfields4, Oct 29, 2013.

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  1. bfields4

    bfields4 Savant (1,171) Dec 11, 2007 Colorado

    Hi guys,

    Been on a huge saison kick lately, and decided to design a little one myself. I wanted something that was a little bit heavy for the winter, but still was somewhat dry and crisp. I thought the american hops might give it a little interesting spin too. Any thoughts, comments? One of my first recipies, so any feedback would be awesome.

    Cheers!
    Ben

    Fermentables

    Pilsner 6.0 lb 56 % Mash37
    Wheat Malt 2.0 lb 18 % Mash38
    Munich Malt 20L 2.0 lb 18 % Mash34
    Candi Sugar, Dark 10.0 oz 5 % Boil 36

    Hops

    Magnum Germany 0.5 oz 60 min First WortPellet13.0%
    Mosaic United States 1.0 oz 15 min BoilPellet12.5%
    Amarillo United States 1.0 oz 0 min BoilPellet9.5%

    Yeasts

    French Saison 3711 Wyeast 80.0% 65°F – 77°F

    Extras/Spices

    Irish Moss 3.0 g 15.0 minBoil
    Lemongrass (Fresh) 1.0 oz 0.0 minBoil
    Bitter Orange Peel 0.25 oz 0.0 minBoil
    Coriander Seed 0.5 oz 0.0 minBoil
    Sweet Orange Peel 0.25 oz 0.0 minBoil


    Predicted Stats
    1.059 OG 1.012 FG 43 IBU 6.2% ABV 20 SRM
     
  2. DrewBeechum

    DrewBeechum Pooh-Bah (1,954) Mar 15, 2003 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I think you'll be much happier without the spices.
     
    NiceFly, pweis909, MrOH and 1 other person like this.
  3. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,452) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I did not get a lot of noticeable flavor from sweet orange peel, although I think it would fit with your beer quite well. I want to say I used one ounce of fresh orange peel, but I'm not sure (it's whatever weight the common packages are sold in, I used one package).

    I don't know how "heavy for the winter" a 1.059 OG beer is going to be, but I have no doubt this will be dry, given the sugar addition and 3711 yeast.

    The wheat might add something body wise. Head retention wise I used 3711 with straight 2-row and had great head and lacing.

    Also, while I think your hops choices are fantastic, will it really be "hoppy?" Not that I think you need to change a thing on the hops.

    Other than that, I like where you're going with this idea.
     
  4. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I agree with drewbage. Any time I am trying to accentuate hops, I keep my beer simple. I just did a hoppy fall saison that looks like this...
    8lbs Belgian pils
    2lbs dark munich
    2lbs red wheat
    1lb flaked oats
    .5oz Chinook @60
    .5oz Chinook @10
    1oz saaz @10
    1 oz saaz @0
    1oz citra dh
    1oz Chinook dh
    og 1.061
    ibus @ 50
    fermented with wlp 670.
    She came out pretty bitter, thanks to the dryness from the brett, but the brett compliments the fruity aspects of the hops I used as well. Not a lot of pine, tons of tropical fruit with a dry, bitter finish that doesn't linger too much. It's a nice color as well. I think if I had used any spices or citrus it would have muddled the flavors I have.
     
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  5. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    My guess is you might never have brewed with WYeast 3711 before. My experience with it was approximately OG 1.060 and FG 1.000. It is a highly attenuative yeast strain. You might want to revise your FG and ABV expectations, and/or (perhaps) your use of simple sugars in the beer. I've only used it one time myself, but virtually everyone who has posted about it has reported a lower than expected final gravity.
     
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  6. bfields4

    bfields4 Savant (1,171) Dec 11, 2007 Colorado

    Thanks for all the recommendations guys! I was a little hesitant about the spices with the mosaic and amarillo. I did score some really nice lemongrass though, so I'm thinkin that'll stay at least. I'm not really worried about necessarily accentuating the hops, but I am a little worried about muddling them. I thought the orange might play well with the dark candi sugar, but I might take that out.

    BTW, I actually meant darker when I said heavy, not necessarily heavy.

    I used brewtoad, so that's where the OG and FG come from. I actually have used the WYeast 3711 before, but it's been 4 years or so. I am looking for something that's dryer so that's good to hear!

    Cheers & thanks!
    Ben
     
  7. poopinmybutt

    poopinmybutt Zealot (643) May 25, 2005 Nebraska

    i have used fresh lemongrass (along with some fresh sage leaves) soaked in vodka as a dry hop addition along with hops and loved what it did to the beer. bright and punchy. a friend recently did a saison with dried lemongrass added at the end of boil, and i don't know if it was more the timing or that it was dried, but it didn't really add much.

    i'd also consider dry-hopping with another oz of something too for some extra pop.
     
  8. afrokaze

    afrokaze Pooh-Bah (1,962) Jun 12, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I did an Amarillo saison that came out fantastic, the light citrus and floral aspects really played well with the yeast (WY 3522). I'd also recommend a good dry hop with the Amarillo, 2 oz will give you tons of great aroma.
     
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  9. bfields4

    bfields4 Savant (1,171) Dec 11, 2007 Colorado

    I considered dry-hopping the lemongrass, but I was a little worried about infection... thoughts?
     
  10. poopinmybutt

    poopinmybutt Zealot (643) May 25, 2005 Nebraska


    as long as you give it a good soak in a neutral spirit like vodka you should be fine.
     
  11. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    Oooohh. I love dark saisons. Just bottled one myself.

    In general, I'd decrease the amount of munich . . . you want dry and fruity not malty. Also a dark grain to accentuate the dark candi syrup.

    Maybe:

    Pils 70%
    Wheat 10%
    Munich 10%
    Special B 5%
    Candi syrup 5%

    Also the spices . . . WAY too much. Maybe just one? I always like black cardamom in dark saisons (just use a little bit . . .~ 0.5 gms per 5-6 gallons).

    Things to consider: addition of fruit (dried something or other), upping OG, souring or Brett?

    Dark saisons rock. I've been drinking a dark spiced (black cardamom) fruited (dried currants & kumquats) sour (bottle dregs) saison lately.
     
  12. Thorpe429

    Thorpe429 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,705) Aug 18, 2008 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    I wouldn't worry about soaking in vodka or anything. If you're using 3711, it's likely going to get down to near 1.000, so there isn't going to be much left to get at.
     
  13. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,452) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society Pooh-Bah

    First use for me was expected OG 1.010 (a pipe dream, in retrospect), and actual FG upon bottling of 1.006. 1.006 may have been quite the wrong actual FG tho, it may have actually been even lower. To be honest, I didn't check it twice over three days, I merely checked it at bottling and saw 1.006 and went with it. The beer was highly carbonated, with enormous head and massively sticky lacing, despite having only 2-row as the malt bill. Now I know 3711 is a beast, and saisons are noted for high carbonation, but I concede the possibility with this beer that it may have still had a point or two left to attenuate when I bottled it, and may thus have been over-carbed, even for a saison.

    The big caveat here is that the beer was so delicious that it didn't last long enough to make bottle bombs. :grinning:
     
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