Koln (Cologne)

The argument wasn't whether or not there exists a rivalry at some level, but whether or not alt brewing in Köln was a good or bad thing. Stahlsturm posited that this amounted to Americanization, and not in a good sense. Jack posited that this is how a market economy works, someone offering a product to consumers which has a demand, in this case it seems altbier brewed in Köln has found a demand that supports at least two smaller breweries.

If the argument was over the rivalry, then your position would be to support the rivalry itself from both sides (for the sake of rivalry itself?). But the argument isn't over the rivalry, but of consumers wanting a product and producers providing it to them. There is ample room to discuss what the limits should be for a market economy, and whether or not protectionism is desirable or necessary in some areas of the economy (for the protection of some intangible good, a heritage or cultural asset for example), but that's a different discussion, and one which I'm guessing wont fly on this forum, unless it's disguised enough in beery terms .

 

Stahlsturm's bitching about America continues...

 

My point is that free market principles don't exist in a vacuum, and that whenever it comrs to Alt and Koelsch coexisting, there is much in play than simply economic suppky and demand.

 

That would be my point also, if I understood you correctly here. On the one hand there exists two more or less distinct beer styles in Köln and Düsseldorf and a rivalry inbetween them. That much is true. On the other hand there exists a market for altbier in Köln. Those are the facts, existing parallell to one another. Acknowledging the existence of the market conditions does not mean that one ignores the rivalry that exists simultaneously.

Then there are the value judgements that can be made of this situation. Whether or not one believes that the brewing of altbier in Köln threatens the survival or integrity of each respective city's beer heritage and culture, or if they can be blended together and commercialized alongside one another with no serious reprecussions to each respective beer culture. The issue of assimilation vs diversity if you will.

 

“ …someone offering a product to consumers which has a demand, in this case it seems altbier brewed in Köln has found a demand that supports at least two smaller breweries.” Well, that is the way it looks to me. If there was (is) no demand for Altbiers in Köln then I can’t conceive why Brauerei Heller & Gasthaus-Brauerei Braustelle would brew them.

There is no secret that I am a personal advocate for freedom of beer choice (and I suppose by extension a free market economy). I believe that it is beneficial to provide consumers (beer consumers in this instance) the ability to choose which products they want to purchase.

Skål!

 

It looked and sounded really familiar. I was in Dresden over a year ago so my memory is not perfect, but it immediately rang a bell.

 

Just to throw in my own two cents to the other debate here, I'm perfectly OK with Germans brewing German beer styles for the German market. I wish them well and what's more, I'd love to get my hands on their Alt.

However, it's very hard to explain to an American how much these two beers in particular are woven into the very fabric of how these people identify themselves. It's really a very deep part of the culture - the Kölsch drink Kölsch and Düsseldorfers drink Alt. Period.

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to be successful in their home markets.

 

On just a cursory look at Heller's Web site, I didn't see an Alt. As for Braustelle, they seem to brew for markets very much external to Koeln. So either they are flying well under the radar...or these beers have enough of a "twist" as to not be considered authentic, and as such are accepted as simple aberrations and not threats to the culture.

 

They have it here.

 

Thinking abiut this some more; is it possible that Alt in these cases diesn't mean Duesseldorf Alt, but rather just "old" in thr way, for example, Pinkus brewery uses it?

EDIT: thanks for link mjtierney; looks like it is the more generic use of "alt"...with a mention of the rival style for good measure.

 

Not sure with the Pinkus beer you're referring to, but the Heller beer is most definitely an Alt. I imagine the Braustelle is as well.

 

They correctly point out that Alt, contrary to Kölsch, is not a beer style that is strictly tied to a specific city. Of course, Düsseldorf is the center and the heart of Alt-brewing in Germany, but generally it is a common style in the whole Niederrhein- and Münsterland area. And, there is no such silly thing as an Alt-convention as they have their Kölsch-convention in Köln.

 

Oh, I don't believe he's bitching about America itself, just the encroachment of American trendiness on his nice, safe (tasty & traditional) beer world. Don't forget, if it wasn't for America he wouldn't have the loving spouse he has now!

 

Pinkus Alt was the first non-Duesseldorf style Altbier I ever tried. In his Pocket Guide, Michael Jackson uses it as the example of what danfue talks about above: namely that "in this instance, the term alt indicates simply an old style, without suggesting anything on the lines of the Duesseldorf classics."

Still, it does sound like Hellers is brewing something similar to a Duesseldorf-style Alt. In the article danfue posted, the new female brewer (daughter of previous brewer) talks about breaking down barriers and letting the market decide if Koelner will purchase an Alt. Also has some funny quotes about how a Duesseldorf brewery even tried brewing a Koelsch 15 years ago...with disastrous results.

The debate rages on!

 

Max Paffgen is good, and it's right next to a Kristkindlmarkt. We were just there recently and they had their holiday Bockbier available, it was boss. Suenner is a short walk from there, and there koelsch is great, plus we had an incredible meal there, whole roasted pork shanks, crispy skin, fall off the bone meat, bratkartoffelen and everything smothered in gravy. Awesome food. And screw gluhwein, apfelpunsch mit calvados is where it's at.

 

Short comment: if you read the article, she states that in the end, the consumer will decide if it's brewed again.

But isn't that how it always works?

 

In America, maybe. During my years in Germany, I rarely got the feeling that the customer gets to decide much at all....

 

So true. You never want to be on the "customer" side of a "customer service" transaction.

 

IMHO, that is the way it should work regardless of which country this occurs. I will readily admit that I do not understand why German consumers can not decide which beers they want to drink. Maybe you can educate me on this topic since you have lived in Germany for an extended period in time and have the additional perspective of having worked (and continue to work) in the beer industry. Shouldn't the German beer consumers get to decide which beers they get to drink?

Cheers!

 

Ah yes, the $64,000 question...

Without going into a huge (subjective) dissertation, I think that the issue is two-fold: 1) they are getting partly what they WANT, and 2) partly what they DESERVE.

1) Our ongoing discussion: Most Germans are still living with The Cloud of RHG Illusion dancing in their heads, and firmly believe that their beers are superior to whatever the rest of the world has to offer. This has become ingrained in their brains. They want it simply because it's German.

2) This one is a tad deeper, bear with me... Food and beverage in Germany is the cheapest in all of Europe. This due, for the most part, to Aldi and the other me-too hard discounters (Lidl, Penny, Norma, etc). Germans have learned that quality does not have to be expensive (one could argue the point). The beer and beverage industry in general cannot raise prices to keep up with inflation and union wage hikes, but the consumer demands inexpensive products. In the beer industry in general, all wait for the big guys to raise prices so that they can also go up - and here it comes - because whoever is the least expensive sells the most beer. Not by a little, but by leaps and bounds. In the end, nobody raises prices. The Little Voice in Every German's head tells him every Saturday morning, possibly rightly so: "Hmmm, all beers basically taste the same, I'll grab the cheaper beer. Because hey, it's all brewed according to RHG anyway, so it has to be good."