Rebel IPA vs Lagunitas?

I'm sorry guys... I've heard it with my own ears, from Sam Adams rep(s), distrubitor reps both On and Off premise.... they have TOLD retailers that they are specifically going after the following brands: Harpoon, Goose Island, DFH, Lagunitas, Stone, and a few select local IPA's. Please see my earlier post- they are swiping cards to to take down those lines here in NY. That doesn't fly in the craft word- it's a crock of shit. Please see my earlier post as well.

 

I was lucky enough to share a beer or two with Jim Koch. I went to a thank you banquet for BBC's distributor in Worcester County, Atlas Distributors that he spoke at. I told him I remembered drinking my first Boston Lager. He looked me in the eye and asked me "what did you think?" like he really cared.

 

Well I've been with a distributor for 6 years that distributes Sam Adams. I have never heard this from the many of Sam Adam reps I deal with, or any of my management team. I deal in on premise and I've never been given any money from BBC to give to a customer to put Sam Adams on tap. We have never SWIPED cards either, talk to our buddy BEK in the market about "buy one get one" and buying lines for their goose island garbage.

Here's a news flash, for the most part to get a tap line it has to come from somebody. So that lagunitas you see on tap, probably taken from another small brewery. Did we cry about that? fuck no, that's how business goes.

And this isn't a shot at Lag. I like their beer and purchase it often. Don't buy this bs about how their getting muscled around by the BIG GUYS.

 

n

not for nothing, but Sam is very much paying to play in NY. Like when Angry Orchard came out, it was "oh if you have BL and Seasonal lines on, every time you buy a bbl of each, you get a free bbl of our new cider, Angry Orchard". Did it everywhere. Then, when that was over, it was just one on one AO bbls, because not everyone was playing the game, and no one wanted to keep 3 Sam lines up.
Now it's even easier. No discount, no one on's, no fancy deals. You take down Lagunitas, Goose, Harpoon, or whatever IPA they are going to try and take down, I'll do a $1500 "trade spend". Or, as you and I know it, a card swipe. Maybe they are playing by the rules in Texas, but nowhere near it in NY.
And for the record, ABI/Goose actually doesn't buy lines in the New York.... funny that doesn't happen here, in one of the biggest pay to play markets, but they do in TX. Interesting. Probably because NY has had Goose Island since it's beginning (over 10 years now) and it has organically growth to be a huge brand in Metro NY way before the ABI acquisition.

 

Buying off competition tap handles is a dick move and we all know it happens in the industry i.e. InBev Chicago and everywhere else they do business. With all this said, I saw Rebel IPA on tap 2 weeks ago, saw the very small SA logo, and then purchased a local beer as always. In the end, SA has become the macro-craft brewer that is trying to break into this new trendy ipa club. We determine if they succeed or not.

 

Somebody's lying and it really isnt that hard to figure out who, if you parse both.

 

ZooCircle above is with a distributor and in my experience Distributor's almost never have any roll in the dirtier side of this go-to-market aspect of the business. Breweries do this stuff. I want to write something that I think is important about the Distributors position in this situation in particular. This has a serious crow-eating element to it.

There is an old saying that goes 'War is Business by other means'. The less expressed implication is that 'Business is War by other means'. The rules of both War and Business are similar. Most MBA-types study Sun Tzu more closely than they study Lao Tzu... But Biz and War have one thing in common. They both have objectives and consequences.

In all truth, all of my Objectives were met in that I felt like you, the general population of the BA tribe here and in the Twitterverse were connected up with the lesser seen back room of the industry that you all fostered and continue to patronize and encourage. It's your industry in more ways that you might know.

But there are also the Consequences.

One of those was the amount of curiosity about Rebel that was generated by my drawing additional attention to it. Most of you will now try it. I knew that if I day lighted business practices that were contrary to the things that I think have allowed Craft to be great, that I would also promote the thing that I saw as the transgressor. That's perfectly acceptable to me because I want to sell beer that speaks to you and comparisons make for stronger opinions on your end. (You're welcome, BB)

The other consequence can be that, in the 'fog of war', there can be collateral damage. Example; The U.S. sends a cruise missile into an arid country to end a meeting of bad guys somewhere and instead drops the anvil on a wedding.

It is job #1 for us brewers find ways to speak to you and it is always on our minds that our retail friends sell lots of other brands, that YOU enjoy other brands, and (the most complex relationship) our DISTRIBUTORS, who sell, promote, represent, earn a living, and pay their bills, do so with a whole lot of Other Brands too.

For us brewers this can be a 5-dimensional web of interconnected support and conflicts. Distributors, the very best ones, serve all of their supplier partners with an objectivity that is like walking a razor's edge. Boston Beer is not my partner and does not want what I want, not even close, but we and BB have many partners in common who do want what I want- and also want what BB wants.

My dragging a great Craft Beer Distributor into an very important effort on my part to strike down with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my tap handles, was unfair to the Distributor's serious efforts to represent all of us well and honestly. This Big and serious Distributor owns a whole network of individual distributors around the country, some who carry both us and BB and others who do not, but they are all one company.

Can you see how complex things can become?

The memo that leaked out was related to a branch of that distributor that only carried our brand, others carry both. BB became upset with the parent company, who wanted to be as responsive to them as they would be to us.

I was asked to write this note to you to daylight the conflict that my personal pursuit of Lagunitas' needs caused for the Big Distributor. It trickier than in-laws, but it's as real as all of that and more. BTW, never did any of the Big Distributor's houses who carry both brands ever compromise their own strict code of confidentiality that they soulfully extend to all of their suppliers.

So; this is me eating some crow over dragging my good distributor out into the middle of the highway. They weren't really participants in the thing in any particular way.

I don't mind playing on the freeway because that's where the action is and it's my job, but they are not that sort of business, and they shouldn't have had to be out here with me. Interesting, but crow tastes like spotted owl and a little like marbled murrelet.

The Skullduggery I brought out is alive and well and we're seeing it already. There was no stopping it and we'll tend to our business.

P.S… I currently have 6 openings for BB Regional Sales Folks if any want to jump ship! Just call the brewery and ask for Greg..!

T.

 

I poured him a few at a beer tasting that I ran September of last year. His beers may not be my favorites (Rebel included), but I have nothing but good words for the man himself, and his comments on this whole thing certainly don't detract from that impression.

 

I want to try Rebel. I love Lagunitas Lil Sumpin sumpin. The other ones are a little hollow to me.

 

I saw the new Sam Adams commercial that seemed to be a shot at smaller breweries witch I figured stemmed from the twitter drama.
I've already written off BBC beers personally, not because of this but because those were crossover beers for me, after trying some of the best beers around the country , revisiting Sam Adams leaves me wanting.
It seems in the world of Craft beer there is Honor amongst brewers/breweries, many of witch collaborate with each other or feature other breweries at their own tap room from time to time. This attempt at taking over is blatant disrespect and in return is not respectable.

 

Oh hell. What time is it there? This made sense to me on a Friday evening.

Honestly, I like Lagunitas. A lot. Sucks destroyed my world when it came out. It was funny to watch you talk about "I am gonna put Sucks in 32's cause that is how I roll and frsit and whatnot" . Then you fucked everyones world up and alll these cases of 12oz bottle cases showed up a few weeks ago at $35.00 a case. Now, dude, keep on with this. Put Sucks on tap. Yeah it will scare some people. It's not a newbie beer. But son of a bitch, it's just freaking delicious and amazingly priced. The rest of the country wants it. Go, go, go distro of Sucks. Put those handles in bars and see how successful Rebel will be in taking taking over those taps.

*oh and somehow teach the uninitiated how to say Lagunitas. sounds ignorate but i bet plenty of folks don't order your IPA because "Can I have a Rebel" is easier for some folks than making a fool of themselves (in their mind) of saying "Can I have a Laganatisis IPA". Sounds stupid but you guys are talking about a prime market of newbies and they WILL make that decision based upon the simple ability to order the beer.

 

Had the Rebel IPA tonight at Buffalo Wild Wings.
I think Rebel IPA vs Harpoon IPA would be more accurate

 

Agreed, and I felt this from the beginning of it's release. But putting everything that has been posted thus far aside, doesn't it seem a bit fishy that Sam would make an IPA that would be comparable to their biggest local competition's flagship, that accounts for 70% of their sales? Competition is part of capitalism, but Harpoon IPA just wrapped up it's 20th Anniversary, and I hate that Sam sees in fit (whether intentional, or not) to target the 2nd largest NE breweries bread and butter. From what I understand, it's one of the reasons that Harpoon Ale was never their flagship... they didn't see a point in going after a beer with a similar taste profile in Boston Lager (yes I know one is an ale and one a lager). So, they turned their extremely successful summer seasonal into their flagship, and it's been all good from there.

 

As a big Lagunitas fan makes me want to try Rebel.

 

If it was just about business practices, how did craft breweries crawl out from nothingness to get to where they are today? The lid's off consumers accepting mediocre beers. And the net's providing a whole new level of transparency from the behind all curtains. Hawks will soar and pigs will wallow.

 

My Sam rep brought this in a few weeks ago:




I don't care to give my opinion on it as I'm sure most of you don't give a shit and will wait and try it for yourselves. I will say its worth a try.

 

Personally, if I was Tony I'd be pretty pissed too. It's not so much that BB made a West Coast IPA, but the fact that everything about this new Rebel IPA screams West Coast. From the labeling to the fancy little TV commercial that I just watched. Everything about it seems to be very anti BB and very much so current IPA trends.

When I think of Lagunitas, I think of quintessential West Coast new world beer. When I think of BB, I think of quintessential East Coast old world beer. Both offer something unique and different from eachother, which is what the consumer likes. What would upset me most is that Lagunitas has built its entire brand identity off West Coast IPA and not to mention a new self-financed brewery (can't say the same for some of the other bigs who are in the process of doing the same thing) to try and bring that brand to the East Coast. This attempt by BB looks blatantly like they ignored the growth of IPAs for too long and now that the genre is through the roof, they want a slice of the pie too. I'm sure they'll use their incredible distribution channels to achieve this. I'd be pissed if I were Stone, Green Flash, Firestone as well.

Im sure Tony is not so much worried about whether people who frequent this board or not purchases a sixer of Lagunitas because they probably will anyways, but rather the investment bankers or 50 yr old bud drinkers who are discovering craft for the first time and want IPAs, but make the mistake of identifying one brand for something it isn't or has never set out to be, a West Coast style beer brand. What's the point of establishing a brand identity if someone is going to come along and just copy it? That's what makes craft unique is that for the most part, people don't imitate, but innovate.

BB is at least a decade late to the party on this one and I'm surprised more people aren't calling them out on it. I'd definitely be worried too because BB without a doubt has the ability to overwhelm the market and push even the largest of the craft sector out of certain areas, which they will totally do.

Craft beer is BIG business now and the coom by ya sentiments that people sing is somewhat of a farce. Don't fool yourself and think that there isn't big money involved in the business, and when a blatant imitation product comes around it feels like this is just a complete attempt at market share grab by BB. If Lagunitas announced their new, innovative line of super rare, limited edition 27% beers or their latest amber ale with a bicycle logo on the bottle, my guess is people would probably call them out on it. That's why they don't do it.


If BB wants to make a West Coast style IPA, fine by me, and fine by all would be my guess. But do it BB style and not someone else's. I'm sure if it had happened that way, you'd hear nothing but congratulations from Tony for making something that was different.

 

You created your account purely to post this, and the upshot seems to be that Sam Adams is to be condemned for the following:

1) not having brewed any West Coast-style IPAs until now, and
2) brewing a West Coast style-IPA now, because
3) West Coast style IPAs are specifically associated with Lagunitas.

Interdasting. I look forward to your second post.

 

Golly Bleakies... when will you review your first beer or visit your first place.?

...let the guy stick up for me!

 

I prefer drinking over reviewing.

But here's a review: Lagunitas brews great beer but did not in fact invent the IPA, nor even the West Coast-style IPA, which renders curious and fantastical the claims of the person who signed up on this site solely to stick up for you.