At what point does a trade become a done deal?

Nothing is completely set till someone ships. Once that happens you are obligated to send your end. It may be a dick move to back out late, especially if someone has bought the beer they are going to ship but not bad trader dick move.

 

I look at it as once the shipping info has been exchanged, that makes it a contract of sorts, since that is the point at which both parties agree its a good deal. I am not just giving my address out for the fun of it so more people can have it. The shipping is the carrying out of the contract. Backing out once shipping info has been exchanged is more than just a dick move in my book. When one person ships and then the other backs out, I would say, at the very least that person owes it to the other to send back and reimburse shipping costs.

 

Trade agreed to and shipping information sent. Part of trading is being able to take others at their words. If they can't manage that much, they aren't good traders - they're conniving, and telling someone they've simply been inconvenienced shows a lack of empathy. People are also out time and other possible trade connections.

 

I don't think your survey provides enough options.

 

I say once shipping info has been exchanged, its a done deal. Whats to say that I'm not going to run out shortly and drop your box into the mail - only to find out that you want to back out now?

 

If everyone already has the bottles before negotiations, it is sealed once parties exchange shipping information. At that point, you have to consider that the other party can ship at any point, thus creating a sticky situation.

If I have to go out and buy or track down bottles for a trade in a short period of time, spending money of course in the process, I would say that it has already been agreed upon as a trade prior to when I went to buy/obtain the bottles. For instance, a year ago, I bought a Rare and Behemoth for a guy after we'd agreed upon trade terms and he knew I was buying them for him. He'd asked me to buy them. He eventually flaked. I was pretty upset at the time, as I had no more use for a $50 bottle that I'd been trading away for essentially locals to other people. I got lucky in a sense that I was eventually able to trade both bottles away. However, I still consider that person to be a bad trader.

 

I voted for "info exchanged", but as claaark13 said, there really is no one piece of information that seals a deal. Sometimes it's the address, sometimes it's a mutual 'done deal', sometimes it's a clearly set expectation that somebody is going out to purchase a bottle...

 

Someone can correct me on what I may be getting wrong from law school, but in a purely legal sense, it is an oral contract once there is an agreement. There is a doctrine called efficient breach, which would allow any party to back out at any time for certain reasons, although they would have to reimburse the other person for any costs they may have incurred in the agreement.

So to answer your question, someone can back out at any time. I think what you're really referring to is at what point does someone become a bad trader. IMO they become a bad trader if the other person has shipped and they try to back out, doesn't send the bottle back, or doesn't send what he said he would. Anything prior to that is just a dick move, but I would not call them out as a bad trader because of that. Basically a bad trader in my book is someone who rips someone else off for beer.

 

I love that there's so many people with the "it's their beer and they can do whatever they want with it" when it comes to re-trading or "trading up."
That mentality even extends to eBaying in a lot of people's view...

But science-forbid some one negotiates a trade and then upon reflection (or obtaining new information) realizes they're getting the severe shortend of the straw.

That "possible bad trader thread" seems like it was posted because the OP felt like he was getting the advantage in the deal and doubts anyone else will be willing to accept the same trade.

I agree with the majority that it's bad form to back out after the other guy has shipped-- and in that case I think the receiver should accept the box, toss in some nice extras and send it back with all the original beer intact.

Here's the rub; sometimes people jump the gun and send an address before negotiations are even completed. When they do this it is almost instinctual to reply with your own info-- even when final details aren't hammered out. It's almost like "ok, we are still negotiating but we have the addresses so we can ship after we figure it all out..." then a bm comes the next day saying "here's your tracking number." and you feel locked in.

I'm skeptical of anyone in a huge rush to hurry the trade along like that-- it makes me feel like I'm being taken advantage of.

Personally, before the mob-mentality takes over I'd like to hear the other side of this interaction.

 

If I've agreed to a deal and have given out the location of the "van down by the river" I'm expecting you to follow through! Just not telling ya where I'm at for the hell of it ..... Besides then you know where I'm at and I'll have to move if others find my cellar :-)

if we've exchanged address then I tell other people that I'm sorry a deal has been done and thanks for your time. Then to open it back up??? Like a posting for DL vanilla that was WAY to much to begin with started with a pick 3 then it was pick 5 what ever happened to that 1? It got deleted. And I personally know of 2 people that responded to it. Was someone fishing to see what the could get? Or what they could SQUEEZE out of people for a beer?

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that whether or not you consider them a bad trader or just a dick move, I still wouldn't want to deal with that person any longer.

 

Maybe we need to expand the definitions a little bit:


A bad trader is someone who backs out at the last minute, thus a "bad trader" in the most deliberate sense of the word.

Someone who rips someone off of their beer and never sends back a box is a "beer thief", or as I like to call them, a "fucking thief".

I just feel lumping someone who might back out of a trade vs. someone who steals beer to be two different things entirely.

 

I agree with what you're saying, but the consensus on this site is that a "bad trader" deserving of a "bad trader thread" has generally been when one person ships and the other person doesn't. Perhaps we need to differentiate between what one would generally consider a bad trader, and what defines a Bad Trader on BA.

 

I agree. Don't see the option for "When I send you a BM saying that I will send the one bottle in your offer that doesn't have quite the rarity of the rest of your list so do the trade with me now instead of the other 80 people sending you the same BM."

 

This is why we need a trade feed back system so badly. If addresses are agreed upon, and then the other trader backs out for a better deal, it should go on the feed back so other traders can understand what they're getting into. Whereas people plain ripping others off should get flagged and banned.

 

Agreed. If someone were to back out of a trade, PERSONALLY, I would know to never deal with that person again. If someone ripped me off, than they get outed, no question about it.

I have always felt that the term "bad trader" is much too gracious and loose when it comes to the whole beer trading scene.

It'd be like if I called a roofer to come over on Saturday and we both agreed, then they guy never showed up and I wasted my whole day waiting for him. Then I guess he'd be a "bad roofer" (you know what I mean )

But if I already paid him and he never showed up and/or called me back to reschedule than that's a whole different story and is warranted a completely different title.

 

You can always back out of a trade with me. Just ship my box back and pay for my shipping costs. If anything breaks at that point, I'll expect $ back. No, I'm not rerouting my box - I send from a UPS store and don't feel like explaining to them that a box is returning. I'll also be pissed because I probably stopped hunting down trades for whatever beers you were supposed to send. No, I didn't send early because I wanted to hammer the trade through - I sent after our agreed on shipping date.

 

That is precisely why I don't give my address until I feel it's finalized. I've had people jump the gun in negotiations and send me their address when I wasn't good with the proposed trade so I didn't send my info.