Hybrid Yeast Strains

It is my guess that you brewed your Saison using

“SAISONSTEIN’S MONSTER OYL--‐500
The first in our line of hybrid strains. This strain is a genetic hybrid resulting from the mating of strains OYL-026 and OYL-027, created by and available exclusively from Omega Yeast. Less phenolic and more fruit character than 026.

Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 80-90%
Temperature Range 65-78F
Alcohol Tolerance: High”

I wonder how this compares to The Yeast Bay strain of Saison Blend:

“Saison Blend

A blend of two unique yeast strains isolated from beers that embody the saison style, this blend is a balance of the many characteristic saison flavors and aromas. One yeast strain is a good attenuator that produces a spicy and mildly tart and tangy beer with a full mouthfeel. The other yeast strain is also a good attenuator that produces a delightful ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest and imparts a long, dry and earthy finish to the beer. Together, they produce a dry but balanced beer with a unique flavor and aroma profile.
Temperature: 66-72 ºF
Attenuation: 76 - 82%
Flocculation: Medium – Low”

Nick (@Biobrewer), is there any similarity between SAISONSTEIN’S MONSTER and Saison Blend?

Cheers!

 

From what I understand, OYL does something to promote the formation of haploid cells in their strains that mate sexually to form a new cell line. All of The Yeast Bay strains are isolated from natural sources using a plating and selection technique. The Yeast Bay does not employ the use of lab techniques to induce a haploid state in any of our strains with the intent of creating a new cell line. I think it is a very interesting technique that OYL is using though, and I am actually very interested to know how it works. Not for using them myself, but more out of curiosity as to how it affects their regulatory status with the FDA and if the resulting cell lines are patentable (naturally occurring and isolated yeast are not patentable, and this technique appears to create an organism that is potentially patentable).

Regarding the similarities between Saisonsteins's Monster and our Saison Blend, aside from a few organoleptic descriptors, I think they're quite different. OYL's strain is a single strain created by inducing haploid states in two different strains and mating them. The Yeast Bay's Saison Blend consists of two yeast strains isolated from two separate sources and blended together in a specific ratio.

Hope that helps! Cheers!

 

How would a man and his twin brother compare to his parents?

 

Why would it be patentable? Is a cross between a dog and a cat patentable? Or a wolf and a poodle? Sacch yeast do reproduce sexually. Just not often.

 

Sure, I see the point you're trying to make. However, if there is a factor of deliberateness that plays into patentability. If you create something in lab using even the most rudimentary lab techniques that would have been highly unlikely to occur in the exact same state naturally, that is likely a patentable organism. What do you think are the odds of those exact two strains a) occurring naturally in close proximity to one another, b) naturally forming haploid states (uncommon) and c) sexually mating with one another without the intervention of humans putting them in close proximity? Low. Hops are a stellar example of selective breeding and how its outcomes are protectable intellectual property.

 

Interesting. I didn't realize there were any patented hops.

 

Lance from OYL here. I won't quibble with most of what Biobrewer said. We do encourage the yeast to sporulate and germinate using established yeast techniques. Not all ale strains will sporulate (and none of the lager strains that we have looked at will sporulate), however, so we won't be able to cross every strain in existence. The genetic profile of brewing strains varies from diploid (2 copies of its chromosomes) to polyploid (more than 2 copies) to aneuploid (more than two copies of some, but not all chromosomes). We haven't analyzed the chromosome content of the strains we have crossed so we don't even know whether the sporulation and germination phase of our protocol even generates haploid cells, although given that they are mating competent, that's probably the case. That's as far as I'm willing to go in explaining how we do what we do. I will say that our hybrids do not contain recombinant DNA and are thus not subject to FDA scrutiny, just like the plethora of hops hybrids (and tomato, and zucchini, and potatoes, and corn, etc.) are not subject to FDA scrutiny. They're not genetically modified organisms. They are hybrids that contain 50% of their genetic content from one parent strain and 50% of their genetic content form the second parent.

I will also say with confidence that our hybrids should be patentable and I say this as a biotechnology patent lawyer. The reason they would be patentable is essentially for the reasons Biobrewer stated. The hand of man is required to get the mating event to happen and to isolate the resulting hybrids. We have filed a patent application for Saisonstein's Monster, although if you know anything about the patent office, an ultimate determination on patentability is years away.

We are confident that our technique has great significance to the brewing industry. As each mating event generates hundreds of unique hybrids (just like any two human parents will generate multiple genetically unique offspring), it is theoretically possible for us to mix and match properties from two strains and screen through enough hybrids to find strains with the desired mix of characteristics. Just like with hops, we can even take our hybrids and mate them with other strains or hybrids and really start mixing up their genetics to get strains that are, for example, 1/4 French Saison, 1/4 Dupont saison, 1/2 Belgian Ardennes, and so on. Needless to say, we're very excited about the potential.

 

Amarillo is one, I think Citra is another.

Here is information, yeast are considered plants in the language of this.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/plant/

 

Summit as well

 

Lance, Thanks for the information. What you're doing is pretty interesting work. I'm not surprised that the yeast strains are patentable and having experience with the process, I'm not at all surprised at the amount of time you're looking at for a determination on the patentability of the strain.

If the patent goes through (which I suspect that it will), are you concerned at all about enforcing your IP rights? There seems to be a trend with some breweries to share yeast and even some very adventurous ones to culture their own and bank it with a lab as their "house culture". Will you require a license for the commercial use of the yeast, or require breweries to filter before bottling? How will you deal with the inevitable situation where a brewery perhaps cultures it from a small homebrew pitch or from a bottle and banks it and begins using it for commercial use? How would you even go about detection or remaining vigilant? I know patenting something is not an inexpensive process, and a large reason to do it is to remain the sole manufacturer/license provider of the technology.

I'm interested to see where this goes. Cheers Lance!

 

It is why you can't buy rhizomes for certain hops. Citra is the one of the most well know patented hop.

 

Sure, there will be some enforcement issues and we're well aware that we are treading new ground here. To some extent, knowing this technology is out there, the onus may be on the yeast labs banking and propping yeast for a customer to ask their customer what the source of the "house culture" is. Patent infringement is in some sense a strict liability tort, so just because a banking lab doesn't know the "house culture" is patented does not absolve them from liability should the patent holder become aware that they are propagating a patented strain.

 

I would be tempted to just use 1/2 3724 and 3711 and let nature take it's course.

 

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that would essentially be The Yeast Bay Saison Blend.

Cheers!

 

For myself, pure 3724 is the way to go...let the 3711 apologists do their thing

 

How many times have you brewed with 3724? Have you ever experienced stalled fermentations with 3724? At what temperature do you ferment with 3724?

Cheers!

 

Several times...never experienced stalled fermentations (not that they can't happen), 70*F...cheers, brother