"Does American craft brewing have a quality problem?"

short answer: no

long answer: noooooo

 

The ironic thing is that they are not even going that far. They are talking about the barest minimum standards, and their concern that they are not being met- don't make it smell like bandaids or cooked cabbage, don't make it overly astringent, no cardboard or tomato plant character, no soapiness, no sourness where it's not supposed to be, etc., etc. (this is what is meant by "sound", btw). Very unpleasant stuff that is plain as day to even the novice. And there is a concern that it is becoming a trend. And they are getting shit for suggesting that it reflects poorly on the overall standards of the industry!!!

Hey @MitchAtStone - the next time some of your German or Belgian colleagues starts teasing you about how American brewers aren't so hot with the fundamentals you can just say "well, actually, we all had a chat about it online, and decided that we were pretty cool with that".

 

I'd like to simply echo Mith's last statement. It's not about making beers that EVERYONE likes. That's never going to happen. However, when you walk into a brewery and a brewer proudly serves you one after the other patently flawed beers, that's a problem. And the beer is not the problem. The problem is that the brewer doesn't even know there is a problem. Not getting better because you're not trying is shameful. But not getting better because you don't know any better, that might be even worse.

And brewing "sound, consistent beer on a regular basis", is hard. It really is. It takes a lot of work and when there's a team involved, it can be even harder. What is truly important is having someone, or several people, at the helm that are truly masters of their craft. Will mistakes happen? Sure. Dump them and move on.

 

Jeff,

Permit me to ask:

My question to Jeff, if a brewery is producing beer of low quality by a premier brewer’s standard, how is it that the brewery continues to sell product?

Taking the example that @stakem provided: “Heck, one other establishment has been making terribly flawed beers for 17 years and yet they continue to open up new location after new location.”

How does ABC not only survive but in fact thrive by producing non-quality beer?

It seems to me that customers, who vote with their dollars, are of the opinion that these beers are quality as in deserving of their money.

Cheers!

 

The more I read this thread and see the informed opinion, the more I ask is there really a widespread quality problem?

Sure there are lots of upstarts making stuff not worth a nickel but there is more great beer now readily available from more places than in any time of my over 30 years of beer drinking. It seems to greatly overshadow those missing the mark (as well as what was generally available 20yrs ago).

Cheers!

 

This was my favorite post in the entire thread. I think whether or not you believe there's a quality issue with craft brewers largely depends on your style preference. If you're an IPA or bourbon-barrel aged fan, you don't believe there is one. If your preference leans towards traditional German, English, and Belgian styles you may feel differently.

This would answer the question of why brewers at the conference said there's a quality problem (experts who know what they're doing) yet sales are still increasing (consumers love IPAs, and there's no shortage of quality IPAs).

 

Peter Bouckart is only one of many European-trained brewers who like to tell me we use too much hops!
I don't think the problem is that widespread, many new breweries are brewing great beers...but perhaps the problem has a regional slant to it-most of the new breweries in SoCal are doing very well.
Sales are increasing because many beer drinkers don't know...or perhaps are just so happy to have a local that they don't care that much.
When I first started brewing in the 1980s, we had one beer that was particularly prone to diacetyl. As a brewer, I hated when that happened, but the people that came into our pub loved it. I wanted to dump every batch. One flavor doesn't fit all.

 

But the topic of style preference is not the point that the brewers are making.

Jeff Erway of La Cumbre Brewing Company (BA @erway) posted: “I'd like to simply echo Mitch's last statement. It's not about making beers that EVERYONE likes. That's never going to happen. However, when you walk into a brewery and a brewer proudly serves you one after the other patently flawed beers, that's a problem.”

So, for Jeff Erway and Mitch Steele (of Stone Brewing; BA @MitchAtStone) the issue is not IPAs and Barrel Aged Beers vs. German/Belgian/English style beers, the issue is producing beers with flaws. A brewery can produce a flawed IPA or flawed Barrel Aged Beer as easily as they produce a flawed German/Belgian/English beer.

It seems that your views on what constitutes a “bad brewery” are what I posted of:

“Some folks might think that a bad brewery is a brewery that makes what they consider to be substandard beer. Some BAs might think that a US craft brewery that makes a European style beer that does not ‘match’ how that beer is brewed in Europe is a bad brewery. For example, some folks only think that Belgian breweries make a proper Dubbel, Tripel, Golden Ale, etc. I have difficulty buying into this definition since it is very subjective in multiple ways:

· Each beer drinker thinks they have the authority to judge what constitutes a traditional beer

· If a US craft brewery takes any liberties with how they want to brew a traditional beer that constitutes “bad”.

· Etc.”

Cheers!

 

“Sales are increasing because many beer drinkers don't know...or perhaps are just so happy to have a local that they don't care that much.”

Mitch, please let me explore your comments:

“Sales are increasing because many beer drinkers don't know…” Are you also of the opinion that beer drinkers that prefer to drink beers like Budweiser, Miller Lite, etc. is because they “don’t know"? How do the preferences of the beer consumers play into this?

“ …perhaps are just so happy to have a local that they don't care that much.” For the Brewers Association and you, is that considered to be a bad thing?

I would greatly appreciate your response to my queries. While I appreciate the fact that you have taken time out of your busy schedule to participate in this thread discussion I must say that I find it disturbing that you choose to not reply to any of my queries.

Cheers!

Jack

 

I have run a successful small business for over 22 years now, and that's not hypothetical. No, my business isn't brewing beer. I'm a network engineer and own a small consulting firm. Talk about a field where there's a vast difference in quality from one company to another. I've lived through a crash or two in my industry too. Does it annoy me when I am automatically distrusted by a prospective client because they were screwed over by their last computer guy? You betcha, but after they see the quality of our work and the way my company does business, they are very happy. I then have another loyal customer spreading the word.

It seems to me the BA are more interested in changing their rules to allow bigger well established operations into the fold. They now even allow breweries that use (gasp) non-malt adjuncts, perceived quality be damned. I think their mission is more weighted toward acquiring market share. If they can do it by including breweries like Yuengling then it's all good, right?

Yes, I too believe brands like Blue Moon are a bizarre example of successful mediocre crafty brews done by BMC... oh wait, that's not what you meant is it?

 

Except a double IPA masks these flaws more than say, a pilsner. A German pils is naked, nothing bold or outstanding to cover up unwanted flavors. Take our local Jack's Abby for example. Their double IPLs were deemed world class right out of the gate. Then their German pilsner came out, and while decent, is not what I consider world class. And the ratings on this site also back this up (and not just overall rating, Kiwi Rising is number 1 in that style, and Sunny Ridge is 48). Their Jabby Brau, a 4.5% American pale lager, was inconsistent at first. Now, it's much improved. Do you think the discrepancy between the double IPA and pilsner/pale lager is due to the brewer's skill or the degree of difficulty between the styles?

Nope, I never explained what my definition of a bad brewery is. I was simply offering up an explanation for why the brewers feel there's a quality issue, and the consumers are still buying the product.

 

“Yes, I too believe brands like Blue Moon are a bizarre example of successful mediocre crafty brews done by BMC…”

But Blue Moon had sales of about 2 million barrels as of August 2013.

Who gets to decide whether a beer is mediocre (or non-quality)?

Cheers!

 

Two possible explanations:
1.) it is human nature to make sweeping generalizations based on a personal experience, especially when that experience is negative. Witness some people's attitudes toward welfare fraud, because "that guy on food stamps buying cigarettes! Grrrrr!

2.) perhaps an even more cynical explanation is that your hypothetical would make local news, while what actually happened has reached beer geeks internet wide.

 

“Do you think the discrepancy between the double IPA and pilsner/pale lager is due to the brewer's skill or the degree of difficulty between the styles?” I can’t specifically comment to Jack’s Abby Pilsner but I have consumed Hoponius Union, Jabby Brau, and Smoke & Dagger and they were all high quality beers. I homebrew Pilsners, Kolsch beers and Hoppy Beers (plus plenty of other beer styles). Brewing a Pilsner (or a Kolsch) is actually not too difficult; it is just attention to detail and proper brewing process. Brewing an IPA or an IPL also requires attention to detail and proper brewing process. The whole IPA/IPL and masking of flaws is a bunch of nonsense from my perspective.

“I was simply offering up an explanation for why the brewers feel there's a quality issue, and the consumers are still buying the product.” But the brewers (Jeff Erway and Mitch Steele) were not discussing the beer style topic. One more time: @erway posted: “I'd like to simply echo Mitch's last statement. It's not about making beers that EVERYONE likes. That's never going to happen. However, when you walk into a brewery and a brewer proudly serves you one after the other patently flawed beers, that's a problem.”

There was no discussion about properly brewing a German/Belgian/English style beer. Their concern is flaws in the beer.

Do I need to explain to you what a brewing flaw is vs. a stylistic difference?

Cheers!

 

I was just replying using the language of the previous poster. I am in complete agreement, mediocrity is in the eye, or in this case palate, of the individual. That's been my point the whole time. Is the perceived lack of quality damaging to the industry as a whole, or is it just a lot of hand wringing from a trade organization that the average person has never even heard of? I still stand by my premise that the consumers and market forces will shake out the breweries that can't cut it.

 

"I still stand by my premise that the consumers and market forces will shake out the breweries that can't cut it." Amen brother!

Cheers to you!

 

The market will weed out the inferior players in time... the argument that people will stop drinking a craft beer if they have one, and they don't enjoy it, makes as much sense to me as having a crappy meal at a restaurant means people won't go out to eat anymore. The restaurant may go out of business, though.

They may forgo a particular style, but I think even the average consumer understands there are are other things out there to try.

 

What I stated in a previous post: “I am personally at a loss of understanding the notion of “one glass of shitty beer to ruin it for the general public”. For example I have had less than pleasant meals of a certain food item and what I learned is not to order that dish at the offending restaurant (or don’t go back to that particular restaurant). If I had a bad beer from a given brewery (e.g., Lazy Magnolia) I would conclude that Lazy Magnolia does not make good beer so I will buy some Sierra Nevada (or whatever) beer instead.”

Great minds think alike!

Cheers to you sir!

 

I think this blog post sums it up partially:

http://www.brewersassociation.org/p...e-smallest-craft-breweries-are-driving-growth

I think it's clear in recent years that there has been a huge shift in the BA and its representative motives...

I also believe these comments echo, however subtly, the problems that the top 50 breweries are going to face in coming years. Many of those top 50 are financing large expansions in ever more distant places in order to meet their sales goals and a lot of these supposed bad breweries chip away at their sales. Not a big deal if one or two do so, but as more and more breweries open up, it becomes a problem.

For me, this seems like a concern about economics more than about an actual concern for truly bad beer, but maybe I'm wrong on this one...

 

1. No, I would not say that at all. People who like American Lagers like American Lagers. People who like more flavor seek out craft or imports. It's personal preference, and to imply that American lager drinkers don't know any better is a mistake. That's not an issue of quality, that's only related to taste preferences. Who am I to comment on what the preferences of a beer consumer should be?
2. That being said, I'm a big believer in the rising tide raises all ships. For us to continue the kind of phenomenal growth we've had, all brewers need to make a quality beer. We support that notion in everything we do at Stone. We support and help many local startups, and we distribute many different brands of beer. We are all about supporting the craft beer industry and helping it grow. So short term, it may not be a bad thing necessarily when a local turns out flawed beer, but long term, it could become problematic. We have become known for brewing great, innovative and special beers in this country, I don't want that to go away because of people who get into this business and aren't committed to making a high quality beer.

I didn't have time to read every comment here, so I apologize for missing your questions.