Oktoberfest beers anno 1901.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Crusader, Apr 22, 2014.

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  1. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    Found a table (page 434 in the publication, page 465 on the black scroll bar below the text) detailing the specs for five of the Märzen beers that were served at the 1901 Oktoberfest which I thought was interesting and wort sharing.

    1.
    Stammwürze: 15.19
    Alcohol: 4.33% (I'm assuming it is expressed in abw, which would make it ca 5.4% abv)
    Real degree of attenuation: 54.4%

    2.
    Stammwürze: 16.07
    Alcohol: 4.62% (5.77% abv)
    Real degree of attenuation: 54.5%

    3.
    Stammwürze: 15.4
    Alcohol: 4.66% (5.8% abv)
    Real degree of attenuation: 57.6%

    4.
    Stammwürze: 14.6
    Alcohol: 4.14% (5.17% abv)
    Real degree of attenuation: 54%

    5.
    Stammwürze: 16.27
    Alcohol: 4.68% (5.85% abv)
    Real degree of attenuation: 54.4%

    Stammwürze and abv of the five samples (abvs ordered to correspond with the associated wort strenght)
    Stammwürze: 14.6, 15.4, 15.19, 16.07, 16.27
    ABV: 5.17, 5.8, 5.4, 5.77, 5.85

    It is interesting I think to consider the span of wort strenghts for the beers, and the range of abvs, compared to the mostly standardized 13.7% wort strenght, 5.9-6% abv pale Oktoberfest beers of today. It is interesting that the weakest märzen served surpassed the modern beers in wort strenght at 14.6%, but only contained 5.17% abv. Whereas the heftier sample at 16.27 contained 5.85% abv, a strenght which we would commonly associate with Oktoberfest beers today.
     
    #1 Crusader, Apr 22, 2014
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  2. GOBLIN

    GOBLIN Pooh-Bah (2,676) Mar 3, 2013 Ohio
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    I don't understand any of that . . . But, I seem to recall reading in several places about how the marzen's of "yesterday" were stronger and fuller bodied than the marzens of today. In other words many of today's version's are watered down almost unrecognizable compared to the real deal. Maybe what your talking about ?
    I would like to know what to be on the lookout for come this fall so I could enjoy a real Oktoberfest.
     
    #2 GOBLIN, Apr 22, 2014
  3. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    Paging Dr. Freud… :grinning:
     
    #3 steveh, Apr 22, 2014
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  4. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    Märzen is a style that has evolved a great deal over time -- even evolving from a process to a "style."

    Nevertheless, there's no real "watered down" version of the style. Today's lighter colored Märzens are still big in body and higher in ABV than standard beers and "unrecognizable" is a word only used by those who haven't followed the history of the style.
     
    #4 steveh, Apr 22, 2014
  5. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    The points made evident by the table is twofold: that there was a greater degree of diversity in brewing specs (original gravity, abv) inbetween different Munich märzen-beers in the past compared to today. And secondly, that the standardized brewing specs of today produce Oktoberfest beers which are more attenuated, i.e more fully fermented and containing less residual sugar, than the märzen beers of the past.

    The beers described in the OP would undoubtedly come across as more full bodied and sweeter compared to today's Oktoberfest beers, although the bitterness of the 1901 beers remains an x-factor as far as balance/sweetness goes. In a 1829 book on Bavarian lager beer brewing the author notes that some people preferred the winter beer to the summer beer since the latter was more bitter, even though the summer beer also contained more malt than the winter beer.
     
    #5 Crusader, Apr 22, 2014
  6. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    Would they have referred to it as "lager" brewing in 1829? Or is the book speaking more to the layering in a cold-storage sense than a fermentation sense?
     
    #6 steveh, Apr 22, 2014
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    The book refers to the beer as braunbier, which is divided into winterbier, sommerbier and nachbier (second runnings beer). It describes the kellers which the beer is to be stored in, a different keller for winter and sommerbier (sommerbierkeller needing to be dug deeper into the ground, unless a cave is used, than a winterbierkeller). It talks about the foam generated ontop of the fermenting beer falling through the beer after a certain amount of time has passed. But the author doesn't call the beer lager beer.

    Here's the book in question: https://archive.org/details/beschreibungder00schagoog
    Beschreibung der braunbier-brauerei im königreiche Bayern
     
    #7 Crusader, Apr 22, 2014
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  8. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    Great verification that the brewers of the day were observant of changes in how the yeast(s) was/were working.
     
    #8 steveh, Apr 22, 2014
  9. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    It's easy to explain why the OG of current Oktoberfest is lower: according to Bavarian law, Märzen had to be between 13.5 and 14º Plato.

    Until recently most of those beers wouldn't have been legal in Germany because you weren't allowed to brew beer with s grvity betwnn 14º and 16º Plato.
     
    #9 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
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  10. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    I'm not surprised by the rubbish degree of attenuation - that was typical of Bavarian beers in the 19th century. What I do find unusual is the high level of acidity.
     
    #10 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
  11. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks for the link, BTW. Lots of fascinationg stuff in there. Especially details of Schwechater (i.e Anton Dreher's brewery) Märzen. I'm shocked to see oth OG under 13º Plato. I though the reduction in gravity of Austrian Märzen was more recent.
     
    #11 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
  12. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    Page 446 of that book is great - it lists the amount of rice used in German brewing between 1882 and 1901.
     
    #12 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    #13 JackHorzempa, Apr 22, 2014
  14. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    Ah yes, didn't think about that, even though I found an article which describes the twists and turns of the German beer tax system over the last century or so. So strange how both schank and märzen beer has been "neutered" in a way by German beer tax regimes.
     
    #14 Crusader, Apr 22, 2014
  15. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    #15 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
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  16. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    I wouldn't say neutered so much as pushe into boxes. You could also argue that the gravity bands for certain beer types have stopped German strengths falling the same way they did in Britain. I've seen British beers called "Strong Ale" that were under 4% ABV. At least with something called Starkbier or Bock in Germany you know it has to be reasonably stroing.
     
    #16 patto1ro, Apr 22, 2014
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  17. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    Sad how little attention this thread got. Would it have fared better in the Germany forum?
     
    #17 patto1ro, Apr 23, 2014
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  18. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    I'm sure you'll hear reasoning about this not being the "Märzen season," but the sad fact is that Märzen is just not in-your-face enough or hoppy enough for the general BA population.
     
    #18 steveh, Apr 23, 2014
  19. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    But what about Hopfen-Märzen?
     
    #19 patto1ro, Apr 23, 2014
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  20. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    I'm following along!
     
    #20 herrburgess, Apr 23, 2014
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