Bias for US Beer?

I fully agree with you if you are going to the brewery itself. For bottled imports, I agree as well in terms of freshness. Draft is nowhere near as bad as bottles here, I think. And neither are comparable to being in Europe. No doubt.

I disagree that it's always a slam dunk case for freshness in the real world when shopping and consuming here in the U.S., and I think many European styles can hold up better with inevitable shelf sitting. Fresh is best, of course. But 6 month old Weihenstephaner Weissbier tastes a whole lot better to me than 6 month old local American IPA, and this is the sort of real world decision I see all the time (I'm not literally comparing the two styles, but I think you see my point). The local stuff, narrowly defined as one's city or metro, isn't necessarily the freshest. That old saying you mentioned above is actually quite irrelevant when it comes to buying bottles in stores, in my opinion. You have to be OCD about checking bottle dates because it can be really, really bad in some metros even if the bottle shop is literally within a few blocks of a brewery. Heck, I just made a trip to Portland and Bend and had problems with old IPA's on shelves. I drank 100% Oregon beer, ones with good reputations, and still couldn't believe how dated some shelf stuff was.

Again with your good point about going to Europe. People having been there know how good it is, and how much better the fresh examples are compared to bottle shop stuff here in the U.S. Fine. But along those lines, I find that those with European experience under the belt are usually not as praising of American attempts at those styles, especially German ones. They have more experienced palates. Yet so many American attempts receive so much praise from so many Americans. It makes me wonder if they either don't drink the German stuff, haven't been to Europe, or have some other set of reasons for thinking so positively about (what is arguably) a mediocre American attempt at a German style. That's where I start to think bias may have a role.

 

Exactly. A three- (or even six-) month old Pilsner Urquell that sat on the boat is still an immeasurably better version of the Czech pilsner style than a three-week old Mama's Little Yella ("Czech") pils brewed right up the road from me in Brevard, NC. The former may be a shadow of its original self; but the latter bears almost no resemblance at all to any Czech pilsner I have ever had at the source.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you think more Americans are familiar with fine European beers than Europeans are familiar with fine American beers, or the opposite?

Do you think Americans have more of a bias for American beers than, say, Germans have for German beers? English for English beers? Belgians for Belgian beers?

If this was a European site, and Europeans were the overwhelming majority here, do you think there would be more, or less, homerism?

 

Sure there's bias. As I'd hazard a guess there is a similar bias towards Belgian beers in Belgium, German beers in Germany, English beers in England and so on and so forth down the line.

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with it either. It's more or less human nature for people to favor that with which they have the most direct and worthwhile experience. Who cares if the top 10 of an American beer site is dominated by American beers? What does it really matter in the long run?

Keep in mind, we're talking about aggregated rankings of beer. It's the averaged opinion of a large group of people. Bias in a group doesn't really mean much. Now if people are using that ranking list as a surrogate for determining what beers are truly "best", then yeah, that's a little annoying. But the fact that Dark Lord outranks Orval (to use @herrburgess' example) doesn't matter to me. I'd rather have a nice glass of Orval 9 times out of 10.

It would be more interesting to me, to see individuals' ranking lists to see how American beers fared against imports. Here are the countries of origin for my top ten beers, in order:

1. Belgium
2. USA
3. Belgium
4. USA
5. USA
6. USA
7. USA
8. USA
9. Belgium
10. USA

So while there is a considerable US bias, it's interesting to me that two of my top three are non-US beers.

 

Knowing what you know about America, and American taste in beer, do you think breweries would sell more, the same, or less of European styles if they could exactly duplicate the styles as they are enjoyed in their home countries of origin?

Relatedly, do you think Pale Ale the way Americans enjoy it would be a success in England competing against "Pale Ale" made the way English traditionally enjoy to drink it?

 

Among macro-drinking Europeans, I have personally witnessed huge bias for their country's own offerings. Among self-proclaimed beer aficionados, the Germans, Brits, and Belgians I know are all (rightly) biased toward their countries' own lagers, cask ales, and Trappists/lambics/other specialties, respectively. They also seem to admire U.S. "craft" specialties such as IPAs, big stouts, and barrel-aged beers. I have never, however, heard a European beer aficionado claim that their country does all of these styles best (although you can many find U.S. "craft" styles being brewed in all of these places) and is therefore the best brewing country.

 

I give everything a fair shake, but I like what I like. That starts with IPAs, APAs and stouts (with ESBs, maibocks and browns thrown in). The number of noteworthy American style IPAs that I've had from overseas...one, Punk IPA from Brewdog. Now stouts are different, and certainly there are many quality stouts and porters from the UK, Ireland, Denmark (Evil Twin) etc. I think Ayinger Celebrator is among the best beers I've ever had. I loved the Nogne Imperial Brown and would probably choose it over any American brown ale I've had.

So aside from the obvious "drink local" biases, and any freshness issues, I generally don't like: saisons/farmhouse ales, pilsners, pale Belgian beers or most sour beers. So the styles where Europe dominates are not styles I particularly enjoy. I think mostly it's the yeast used as I don't much like the American versions of those either. I suspect that this is pretty common.

 

I wonder if they have your equivalent chastising them that they aren't making it the right way, i.e. the way it is made in America to your taste?

 

When I talk to them about it, we generally tend to agree that the best examples of such U.S. 'craft' styles are to be found in the U.S., ideally directly from the source.

 

I think it would depend on the region. For example, in Mecklenburg County, NC, which has a history of German settlement, Olde Mecklenburg Brewery's (very) authentic take on a Duesseldorf-style Alt has been hugely successful. Matter of fact, they recently underwent an $8-million expansion to keep up with demand (which is 100% local, as they do not distribute outside of a 100-mile radius). In places where the settlers were more English, perhaps authentic cask ale would work better.

Why not both? Beer is not a competition.

 

So it seems pretty much all you point out about Americans and European beer is equally true about Europeans and American beer? I guessed so, but glad to hear confirmation.

 

This comment is misplaced, because I spoke of sales, and that is a competition, and only a competition.

 

I've said it myself many times: while I was living in Germany, I used to think the type of bias I was seeing was the exclusive domain of arrogant, ignorant Europeans....

And, yes. Americans tend to do American "styles" best; Germans German styles; Belgians Belgian; and UK UK. Who would have thought?

 

Honestly those I met online and abroad that drink good beer tend to be allot more open minded than your typical average A'merican. yepper. bias who cares...drink what you love. your dime.

 

Now that's a different perspective on bias that I was considering. I was thinking about this as "do Americans prefer American beer to foreign beer?" But this is another, perhaps more interesting, way to look at it. Do Americans prefer American-made versions of classic European styles?

While I can safely say that I veer towards American beers when it comes to my favorites, I also think I have respect for the European classics. I've never been to Germany, so I have a harder time having a good frame of reference for German styles, but I have been to Belgium

While there are many American takes on Belgian styles that I love, I've yet to find a Belgian Strong Pale Ale that comes close to Duvel--in fact, almost every time I try a new BSPA from an American brewer, it just reminds me of why I prefer Duvel. I feel similarly about Orval Belgian Pale Ale. And Rochefort 8 (although I'm sure some would disagree with me on 8 being Rochefort's best beer) and Belgian Strong Dark Ale. Of course, it helps that a lot of Belgian styles hold up to time quite well, making the overseas trip less of a deteriorating factor.

 

I tend also to shy away from imports for that same suspicion: not sure how long they've been in transit. Zywiec and Black Boss are the only European beers I buy on a semi-regular basis, and porters generally age well even if they've been away from the brewery for a while.

 

Amongst "casual" drinkers of good beer, I'd say Americans, Brits (and I'm guessing Belgians and Germans) are all on par. Even now, it's surprising how many Brits who like a good pint, still equate USA with Bud and Bud only.

Amongst beer nerds (i.e. people who are members of sites like these, and like to travel and look beyond their own back yard for quality beers) I would say that Europeans have a bit more of a balanced view. This is pretty self-evident when you look at what posters with European tags have to say in threads like these. I've never seen anyone from Belgium be like "fucking 'Elgium rules! We make the best beer!"

 

Being a massive fan of pale ales (of both the British and American variety), beers such as these (that I've had on cask on a couple of recent trips back home) represent the best of both worlds to me. British soul with an American bite:

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/9051/58084/

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1680/69732/

 

This is an excellent point. When I initially moved to Germany, I thought most of the food tasted bland. The simple fact was, my palate was used to American (and specifically Southern) food, with its high sugar, salt, and fat contents. It took me a couple of months to come around and finally be able to taste the subtle brilliance of a simple fresh baked roll with Alpine butter or an air-cured sausage with a piece of farmer's bread. Same thing applies to beer: if you've been drinking (D)IPAs and big, barrel-aged stouts -- or even just the amped-up versions of German styles -- you may initially have a hard time recognizing the subtle brilliance of a beer like Augustiner Helles, with its delicate earthy-floral hoppiness and bready maltiness. Similarly, someone used to German levels of flavor may feel like their palate has blasted when they pick up a U.S. "craft" Oktoberfest and the chocolate, roasty, hoppy notes are so (relatively) strong.

 

Wish we got more of these to try here. Mostly it's just the usual suspects, or outrageously expensive stuff from Harviestoun or Traquair. Hobgoblin was the last "new to me" British beer I really liked.