No more making starters

Making a starter is always* a good idea.

WL claims its new packaging puts an end to vile vial splooging events...essentially ensures product purity as well as extending the product's shelf-life. What's not to like?

WL sez the new product packages will be available this fall.

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* certain restrictions apply

 

Has nothing to do with forgoing a starter. Just a new way to package their yeast, not make it any more potent.

 

What did the ad actually say? I hope it didn't say what you're thinking it said. If so, it's bollocks.

 

Read the latest issue of Zymurgy, excellent article on yeast handling.... 2 things that popped out, always make a starter for liquid yeast and alway re-hydrate dry yeast. I'm sometimes guilty of not doing the latter do to sheer laziness.

 

No starter regardless of gravity or volume? Sign me up!

 

I didn't watch the video, the article said same cell count. Not much has changed for the way I brew.

 

In Chris White's interview on BeerSmith, he said their target is still 100B cells, but they try to squeeze in a little more if they can. So I think your starter strategies should remain the same. An interesting benefit they have seen with the new packaging and process is that shelf life has increased. He mentioned that the vials would drop to about 50% viability after about 4 months, whereas the new flexpack would drop to 50% after about 6-8 months. The starter calculators will need to take that into account going forward.

 

I think the language that the yeast companies use often *implies* that no starter is needed. The packaging of liquid yeast often says things to the effect of "suitable for pitching in 5 gallons of wort," or other verbiage that seems to imply that you just crack it open and pour it in. So it wouldn't be surprising if you misunderstood! But, as others have said, making a starter should be your default mode with liquid yeast, rehydrating with dry yeast.

 

Below is from the White Labs website:

"While a starter is not always necessary, White Labs recommends making a starter if the Original Gravity is over 1.060, if the yeast is past its "Best Before" date, if you are pitching lager yeast at temperatures below 65F, or if a faster start is desired."

Cheers!

 

And so the pitch rate White Labs is recommending on their website is not a pitch rate at all. Oversimplified, dumbed down, arguably bad advice.

 

Did anyone read the 27 questions Q&A?

I've been meaning to ask what peoples thoughts were on this answer. The last line seems to be incredibly vague.

 

Here is the link...

http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2014/08/q-a-with-dr-chris-white-27-questions-answered.html

 

"Also, you are not getting a lot of growth from a starter unless it is an adequate size."

No kidding.

"We are actually increasing the number of cells per package to 2.5 to 3 billion cells per ml."

This is of course doesn't tell you how many cells are there are, unless you know the volume of slurry in the package. I can't seem to find the volume information anywhere, except that in the pictures of the packages, the filenames include the characters 500ML, 1500ML, and 2000ML. It seems odd that the smallest package would contain 500ML of slurry, but if it did...

500 ml x 2.5 Billion Cells per ml = 1,250 Billion Cells = 1.25 Trillion Cells

Clearly something is off. Maybe...
A) the filenames for the pictures are meaningless
-or-
B) he misspoke or was misquoted on the 2.5 to 3 billion cells per ml (2.5 MILLION per ml would make sense)

I would have guessed that B would be more likely, but I think WL is touting lower shipping costs as part the benefits of the new technology. If so, a thin 500ml slurry wouldn't make much sense. Also, it would mean pitching quite a bit more residual 'manufacturer wort' for someone who is not making a starter and crashing. OTOH, it would makes sense from a standpoint that they are 'culturing in the package' (my words, not theirs) standpoint.

 

What I found most interesting about the response was his differentiating lab grown yeast from re-pitching. And saying the calulators are for re-pitching. I hadnt't read that anywhere before, but I haven't read the yeast book either.

 

JackHorzempa says it all the time on this forum. Maybe you could get him to tell you the appropriate pitch rate (cells per ml per gravity) for 'fresh' yeast.

In my opinion, the supposed difference between lab grown yeast and repitched yeast is overblown. Assuming the same age, repitched yeast will naturally have a higher percentage of non viable (dead) cells, but you would account for that anyway when counting or estimating the count of cells that you have. After that, its a matter of vitality (health). What people forget is that lab grown yeast is propagated by starting with less yeast and feeding it sugars to make more yeast. It's not springing into some sort of pristine existence spontaneously.

One point on the calculators... if you use the calculator integrated into Brewcipher, you can adjust several parameters to your liking, including target pitch rate. Personally, I normally use 750K per ml per degree plato for ales.

 

You made specific comment to the last sentence of: “Also, you are not getting a lot of growth from a starter unless it is an adequate size.” There is truth to that sentence. The general rule of thumb for a starter that is not shaken or on a stir plate is you need a 2 liter starter to double the yeast cell count; 100 billion -> 200 billion. If you use a stir plate or periodically shake the starter then a volume less than 2 liters can double your cell count.

Hopefully you also took note of the middle sentences: “And laboratory grown yeast won’t necessarily follow the pitching rate guidelines since they are very healthy. The pitching rate recommendations traditionally refer to re-pitched yeast.” Yeast calculators. such as the Mr. Malty Yeast Calculator, utilizes the George Fix assumption of 0.75 million cells/ml/°P. This value of 0.75 million is predicated on the assumption that you are re-pitching yeast; this value is a conservative value for the case of yeast from a smack-pack or vial/FlexCell package.

Cheers!

 

Since you so strongly believe this, pray tell the appropriate pitch rate for non-repitched yeast, or stop saying it. i.e. you can't say "That's too many cells, but I won't tell you how many is right, or how many is not enough" and expect to remain credible.

 

You can go to the AHA website and download an article entitled Making a Starter which was written by Jamil Zainasheff; originally published in Zymurgy of March/April 2007. Within that article it states:

“Q: HOW MUCH YEAST OR HOW BIG A STARTER DO I NEED?


A White Labs Pitchable Yeast vial and a Wyeast ACTIVATOR™ 125 XL Smack Pack both contain an average of 100 billion cells and are enough to pitch directly into 5 U.S. gallons (18.9 liters) of an ale wort at 1.048 SG (12 °P). This is a pitching rate of 5.3 million cells per milliliter, which is close to the pitching rate many professional breweries begin with when starting a new pitch of ale yeast. This rate works well because the health and vitality of fresh laboratory cultured yeast are superior to yeast harvested from normal fermentation. Higher gravity worts, especially once they exceed a specific gravity of 1.060 (15 °P), larger wort volumes and lager fermentations all require higher pitching rates (or a starter) for optimum results.”


Cheers!