IPAs Using Both Sugar and Chrystal... WHY??

The crystal offers a balancing sweetness while the sugar offers no sweetness but allows a lower final gravity bc it is completely fermentable. By replacing a portion of the malt with sugar you can reach the same OG as all malt but a lower FG that west coast style IPAs generally require.

 

I think it's counter productive myself, especially if it's carapils...RR supposably had to small of a mash tun so they used the sugar to bost gravity. I bet the carapils was to make sure it wasn't to thin. I believe you could get a nice dry beer (like Pliny) without either

 

I immediately apopt the mindset that when the OP says "crystal" he is referring to C10-40, which are common in I(I)PAs. They work together to balance flavor and lower attenuation. I don't see how they are counter productive.
Even it was carapils, carapils and sugar would each serve a purpose. Increase dextrins for mouthfeel since sugar would take the place of malt, then lower FG from sugar. Then again I could be completely misreading your post. I would concede the point that, from my reading and researching by to develop a successful dry hoppy IIPA, I think the trend is to eliminate crystal. I would say that crystal is much less important in a IIPA than sugar.

What is your successful, reliable, and repeatable process for getting a 1.090 beer to 1.004-1.007 using 1056 and without using sugar?

 

So is this another way of saying what has been posted above? - if a brewer wants to get a higher ABV in an IPA, he can't increase the crystal malt to do that because then there is a malt flavor imbalance. So sugar is used to get the higher ABV, but a side effect is a drier beer?

 

If this is directed at me, I was speaking in general terms for the OP. There are all manners of ways to skin this cat. Sweetness, Maltiness, malt flavor, and dry can be found in probably every combination. Very low FG beers can be taste malty and sweet and high FG can have the flavor impression of a lower FG and less malty. Recipe, procedure, yeast selection all playa role. I'm speaking generally about the relationship between crystal and sugar in IPAs.

 

I struggle to think of a scenario where a recipe that includes both sugar and crystal couldn't be replicated in terms of OG and FG by subbing in base malt and one of either sugar or crystal in place of the two combined.

The only reason I can think to use both is, to the OP's point, if the brewer wants the flavor from the crystal without the higher FG

 

Pliney recipe calls for a 1.012 FG if I remember correctly. Mash temp of 149 for 75-90m without a mash out will get you there with 1/2 lb cara(whatever) malt

 

Because... its just not that simple. While carapils or caramel malts can raise FG (but not always), and sugar can lower FG (but not always) they also have different flavor effects that don't necessarily counter each other. You have to take this case by case, but they are definitely both valid tools to be used separately or at the same time for various purposes.

 

I agree with you flavor effects statement, but am confused by the "not always" bits. I think that if you replace a base malt (or any kind of malt) with an equivalent OG contribution of a simple sugar (glucose, fructose, or sucrose), the FG will end up lower. And if you replace a (true) base malt with carapils or any C-malt (again, same OG contribution), the FG will end up higher. Why would it not always?

 

sorry to jump in on the reply...but i have found that different yeasts will treats dextrins differently, so while it may raise FG using strain X, it may not raise FG using strain Y (completely anecdotal). @NiceFly iirc did a test which showing 3711 basically ate through all dextrins

 

Precisly why I anted to speak in general terms and not get stuck in the mud.

 

Well, I certainly would agree that the degree of difference would be different from strain to strain. But I stand by my assertion that any yeast strain will use all of a simple sugar, and only some or all (degree depending on strain) of the more complex sugars (specifically maltotriose), and won't eat 'unfermentable' dextrins. So replacing any malt with an equivalent OG of simple sugar changes the attenuability of the wort.

Even if 3711 eats all of the maltotriose, there would still be unfermentable dextrins that it doesn't use. If not, 3711 fermentations would show roughly 122% apparent attenuation (100% real attenuation), and I don't think that's the case. So there's something left there.

One other thought...I'm assume we're only talking about sacch strains, not Brett or Bugs. I don't know much about those.

Edit: @NiceFly, can you share/link your data?

 

Why is that a problem? Most recipes use contrasting ingredients to good effect.

 

Yes, that is exactly why, crystal adds more than just sweetness, it also has a distinct flavor and adds color and aids in head retention.

Sugar and crystal malt don't simply "cancel each other out", the crystal will still add its flavor contribution even if its body enhancing effect is countered by the addition of sugar. If they simply counteracted each other then these two simple recipes would yield the same beer, but I assure you they would not:

Recipe 1
100% 2 row

Recipe 2
80% 2 row
10% crystal malt
10% table sugar

 

Hi all, thanks for inviting me to this conversation. I cannot comment on using crystal and sugar in tandem but I will share my 3711 crystal experiment.

I just looked through my old notebook from that time period. At first I thought the pages were missing but upon further inspection the notes are non existent.

Here is what I remember. I was shooting for OG 60 with 1/2 of the grainbill C120. Why C120? The belief that the higher the lovibond the more unfermentables. (as an aside carapils is 70% fermentable).

At the time I though wheat had a higher, indeed the highest, diastatic power of any malt. I have since come to realize this is not true but I used wheat for the other half in an attempt to convert the mash
Like I said I was shooting for 60 but only hit 45. I had a pitch for 60, and used it, which may have helped with attenuation but after a few days I was down to 4 or 5. Over the next few days I checked the gravity daily and quit checking when it got to 3. It may have gotten lower but at that point I had the info I was looking for, there is no stopping 3711.

How did it taste you ask? A bit weird. With the glycerol like mouthfeel of 3711 and the C120 it was sort of like drinking a greasy raisin.

If I were to do it again I would up the % of total crystal while varying the types of crystal. I hope you enjoyed this story.

I guess I should tag @telejunkie and @VikeMan .

 

The question seems to assume that the only reason for using crystal is raise FG. Not true.

 

Dunno. Why does Pliny the Elder taste so good? Here's Vinny's homebrew malt bill:

• 13.25 lbs 2-row
• 8 oz carafoam
• 8 oz caramel-40
• 10 oz corn sugar

Why ask why?