Brett Saison Question.

Don't make a starter of the 3711. If anything, make a starter of the Brux. 3711 is a beast and will tear through your wort super fast and leave little for the Brett. Building up the Brett will give it a larger chance to impact the flavor. With that low of an OG shaking is fine, and you will probably finish in the 1.000-1.001 range with those 2 yeasts.

 

I would suggest making a starter for the 3711. That will do the bulk of the fermentation. I would also recommend pitching them together because 3711 will dry the beer out before Brett will have a chance to do much. In saying that, I also recommend mashing higher then you normally would for a Saison.

You can leave it in primary if you so choose because when the sacc starts to die it produces fatty acids that are a food source for Brett. If you rack to secondary do it before terminal gravity say like 1.015 and then add the Brett. If you're going to bottle condition with Brett, make sure it can't drop anymore then .003 points and I would recommend that you have sturdy Champagne style bottles.

 

I thought underpitching causes over attenuation.

 

I haven't found that getting the Brett to do more of the fermentation leads to greater production of its signature flavors. Think about a 100% Brett beer where the Brett does all of the fermentation. What you tend to get is heightened ester production. That's what comes along with fermentation. Where Brett excels at funk production is after primary fermentation is complete, even if there isn't much sugar available. This is because it uses the phenols in the wort (e.g., 4VG) and converts them into funkier compounds. Look at Orval, no Brett until bottling, and it still gets nice and funky over the first year!

I try to avoid stressed primary yeast fermentations. I pitch the same amount of brewer's yeast I would for a similar gravity clean beer. If I want to manipulate the amount of carbohydrates that the bugs have access to, I'd rather use wort composition.

 

Underpitching yeast typically causes under attenuation. Which is why I stated to under pitch the 3711 in hopes it will leave some for the Brett, though probably not. Also, a 5 gallon batch of 1.043 pitching a WY smack pack of each is definitely not under pitching, not even if he did the 3711 on it's own.

True, didn't think about the possibility of the Brett cells out competing the 3711. My friend did a mixed primary APA (afraid to do 100% Brett) that was pitched with 1056 and 2 Brett strains which had some of the 100% Brett character, but fairly subdued compared to my 100% Brett Trois. His also had some funk that mine didn't exhibit.

 

Correct. Just make sure you leave enough for your Brett to eat over time. That's why I recommended mashing higher then you normally would for a saison.

 

This is what I remember reading. But you're right I didn't even consider the initial gravity and correct pitching rate. My thought process was to not over or under pitch, I just didn't explain my thoughts, which would be helpful in a forum.

 

I cant compete with what oldsock has to say, but I geek out over his articles and books. My last brett saison was inspired from reading a lot of his work, and experiencing a few brett beers that were lackluster at best. I also pulled a lot of influence from Jason Yester and Chad Yakobsen. I went with a 50/50 pils red wheat grist, mashed at 151, and added coriander and halved and juiced clementines @ flameout. I pitched wlp saison 1 and brett brux trois at the same time. I let it ride for a few weeks @ 80, and dryhopped it with nelson for 7 days before bottling. It was very juicy and fruity in the beginning, and later turned into a strange bastard of a brew full of phenols and medicinal esters... and now it's full of mango from the brett and spiciness from the saison yeast. That's my experience with pitching an underattenuating saison yeast with brett. Did I do it right? Did I do it wrong? I cant answer either way, but I know that I have never had brett act in a manner that I "expect". I do know the beer was awesome, then shitty, then awesome again.

 

Yeah, as you can see in my reply to @OldSock I was thinking pitch rates to give the Brett a chance against the Beast, but didn't even consider that this could make the Brett the dominant strain completely shifting the profile from funk to fruit.

 

I wouldn't complain with either profile

 

I guess it would be good if I also add that I have never done a co-pitch. My standard for getting funky saisons is to let the yeast ride on its own, then bottle with the Brett. I have had good success this way, but you have to be careful to get the FG down low enough to not cause bottle bombs.

 

Depends. The higher you mash the longer it will take to reach full attenuation, however, that is technically more food for Brett. I think @OldSock has something on his blog about precursors for Brett phenols. I would shoot for the higher end because given enough time Brett will probably dry it out. I guess it depends how long you're willing to wait on the beer to be ready.

 

I totally agree. The yeast character from 3711 is very nice on its own in a saison, but I have only experienced super-attenuation with that yeast. Even after mashing at 158F hoping to reduce its attenuation I have seen 85%+ AA. I now use either 3724,3726, or 3725 whichever is available and mash at a normal 148-154F and then add the Brett after primary has subsided. I would make a starter for the primary yeast though.

 

I don't see any advantage in saving carbohydrates for Brett, just adds more time in the fermentor. I'd mash low, that way you can get it into bottles sooner where the real magic happens. That isn't the case for sour beers, where you do need carbs for the lactic acid production by bacteria.

 

I believe Chad Yakobsen has opined on this and does not suggest higher mash temps. He gets that fuller mouthfeel while also getting full attenuation and a dry finish, by using a higher percentage of different some non-barley grains--wheat, oats, spelt.

 

Chad is fermenting with Brett as his primary strain though. He uses oats to provide body because Brett doesn't produce Glycerol like Saccharomyces.

 

good point. 100% brett is a different deal, and Chad was in fact talking about that and not a mixed sacch/brett ferment, and the lack of glycerol production by brett was his given reason. my bad.