*Redeemed* BAD TRADER ALERT: @KYLELENK

Thanks for the feedback @kmello69. I think you're right, BIFs carry as much responsibility as a straight trade. I think the expectation of a box of beer is just as valuable as sending a box.

Once again, regardless of the situation, I do not ever think it's ok to reach out and personally harass or threaten individuals outside of this forum. Fortunately, I've never been in a situation where I had a trade go south and lost beer. In the event I ever did, and even if I lost some of my most precious cellar dwellers, never would I think it would be ok to take this issue up with the person on another public forum or directly to their employer. It's unprofessional and downright dangerous.

HIn my situation, I explained to the winners that I had a lot going on (I've had 17 flights in the last 3 weeks) and wanted to make sure I curated an appropriate box for their hard work (part of this was a...no joke...three day bed episode with the worst food poisoning of my life...I missed seeing Arctic Monkeys ). I haven't been logged in to BA in 2 weeks and never was there an indication that I was trying to bail on my obligations. I'd understand if someone from the league had reached out personally asking for an explanation, but no one should feel that they have the power to blackmail someone. Look at the site name and remember to be advocates, not predatory trolls.

 

Well said and I agree. Never once did I personally feel you were trying to back out of your obligations, but it got to the point where I do feel a post was needed in order to see if anyone in the community has heard anything from you, if anything, to make sure everything was ok with you because you did mention the food poisoning. No one should ever have to email your work in that manner over something like this.

 

Moral of the story: make good on your obligations on time, without excuses, & you won't have to be concerned with any of this nonsense. That's what good traders, & good people, do.

Glad it sounds like everyone is going to get their boxes. I'd be interested in people posting when they actually arrive.

 

I'd like to point out that, before addressing any of the nastiness related to the company e-mail sent by "AG," Kyle apologized for his tardiness and lack of communication, didn't make any excuses, and promised to send out more than was originally required. He handled the situation in rare form; most of us are used to seeing assholes who engage in "he said, she said" for a while, deride people who call them out, and, mostly, don't make good on their commitments.

I think a caveat needs to be added to your quoted post, because it implies that, because Kyle was late in sending, he deserved a vicious attack of character delivered to people who have influence over his financial and social well-being, i.e. his coworkers. While at the end of the day, yes, obligations need to be fulfilled in a timely manner, let's keep the discussion focused on the Beer Advocate community and not try to ruin someone's life.

tl;dr - for traders, the moral of the story is: make good on your obligations on time without excuses. For the rest of us, the moral of story is: let's allow the traders who are late/incommunicado the opportunity to make good on their obligations and assume that a Bad Trader thread is sufficient enough to make this happen. If it's not, then we can seek other outlets of opprobrium.

 

I probably shouldn't say anything but sometimes that's hard for me to do. I'm not in any way condoning what "AG" did to Kyle in this specific situation and I don't think Kyle could have handled it much better. He admitted he f'ed up, he came in here and addressed the issue and it seems as if the winners will get their boxes. Kudos to you Kyle.

This isn't the most popular stance but I do disagree with Kyle on one aspect. I know its about 50-50 as far as what people think but under certain circumstances I will personally go after anyone in every way possible to get what is mine or what is owed to me. If I set up a trade with someone, they receive their beer and didn't deliver what was owed to me then I will and have used every option possible to get what is mine.

I'm also very forgiving and as long as xyz person communicates with me then there won't be a problem. If xyz stops all communication, ignores my emails, phone calls, etc than after a certain amount of time I consider it theft. If I have to call their place of employment than so be it. If that person doesn't want me contacting their job to get a hold of them then maybe they a) should have sent what was owed to me b) stayed in contact c) answered my pm's, phone calls, texts, etc.

I'm sick of thieves using BA as a safe haven for stealing because they know all that will happen is a bad trader thread. Then they just go to another site or create another account and do it all over again because there are no "real" repercussions for what they have done. I promise you if more people took a hard line stance than these thieves might think twice about stealing.

Case in point, the one time I came close to contacting a traders employer is when I found his work email and tried to get a response from him through that. This was after calling mommy and daddy's house where he lived and left several messages letting them know their son is a thief. I gave this guy more time to contact me until it was clear he had no intentions of sending what was owed to me. Eventually, as I "escalated" my pursuit of what was owed to me I finally got a response and the beer. Since then, I have had several people contact me from other sites (even within the past few months and this happened to me a year or two ago) asking me about this guy because he did the same thing to them but they never got their beer. Why? because they didn't or weren't willing to take it as far as I did so this dbag is still actively robbing people because he knows nothing of significance will happen.

Point being, if someone doesn't want another person contacting their employer then maybe they shouldn't steal. I find it hysterical that some people consider contacting an employer "over the line" when the person at fault is stealing from someone else. Again, it takes a lot for me to do something like that, I definitely don't think it was appropriate or cool in this situation at all and I feel bad for Kyle that it came to that but there are some circumstances when I think someone is completely justified in trying to get whats theirs by most any means possible.

 

In this particular instance I think the person jumped the gun big time by delving into Kyle's personal life, when they could have exhausted all other options first. But ultimately I agree with you - if I exhaust ALL options of getting in touch with you, and its obvious you're 100% ignoring me, then its no holds barred at that point.

P.S. - you DO NOT want Brad showing up at your house looking for his beer. I'm pretty sure I could take him, but I can't say as much for the rest of you

 

I agree with you 100% except the last part. You have the "old man strength" on your side

 

I'm glad he is making good on what he owes. However, had this thread not been started I wonder if he would have. Kinda goes along the lines of what you do when no one is watching is really what defines you. He hadn't tried to make good on anything until people were "watching" him, calling him out, and checking to see if he will make good on what he owes. In my book, even if he eventually makes good on it, he's still a bad trader. If someone does it once, they can do it again.

 

You sound crazy, I would never want to fuck with you .

I agree with the bolded part of your quote. This just happens to be a situation in which a Bad Trader thread was all that was necessary. It's the first step that should be taken, I know it's the first step that you would take, and hopefully it's all that's required. If it isn't, well, then other options can be explored. AG inappropriately went from 0-100 in this case.

That's what we're discussing, though. Bad Trader threads should be the first resort and should be allowed to run their course before additional action is taken. I don't think anyone can argue that this thread was effective in getting people their beer.

 

True, I was just stating that even if someone comes back after disregarding their responsibilities and makes good on what they owe, they are still a bad trader, in my opinion.

 

The problem with that thinking is that it gives the person no incentive to make good on their original commitments if their reputation is already completely tanked. They should have the ability to redeem themselves. I will post the picture of what Kyle sends me whether it is good, bad or indifferent. Based on my communication with him, I think Kyle will redeem himself.

 

Sorry, I just don't agree with that type of thinking. He should make good on what he owes because he owes it, not so he can get redemption. He would be making good on his debt for the wrong reasons. And I don't want to trade with someone who needs to be basically forced to give me what is owed to me.

Its like if you had someone steal from your house (be it a tv or from your beer cellar) and they eventually return it after being outed by someone else, would you let that person back in your house and would you trust them with your stuff? Hell no.

 

While I (and probably most here) agree with you about why people should make good, the reality is that people – particularly people who are likely to end up called out in a Bad Trader thread – don't always do what they should do, and sometimes external motivation is necessary.

Would you rather have someone make good because they were called out, or have them not make good at all? Because that's what it sometimes comes down to.

 

I think there might be some misconception about my point. I'm not saying that I don't want the person to get called out and have a bad trader thread so the person makes good on his debt. Every bad trader deserves to be called out and should own up to what he owes. But what I'm saying is even if that bad trader makes good on his debt, I would not trade with him going in the future. Once a bad trader, always a bad trader.

 

As Kyle promised, he provided a tracking number to me today.

 

Glad you were able to get your beer

 

Heres my number 1 question about people who are "too busy" to communicate.

Did this guy not have time to write a message while taking a dump? I mean "stinker tinker time" is the best

 

I completely agree. The three of us who were owed boxes by Kyle were in contact with him, the guys running our respective "leagues" as well as shooting a message or two to James to see what the deal is since James knows Kyle personally. The three of us never felt like Kyle was dodging his obligations but we needed resolve at some point, so yes a thread was needed to be made to see if anyone else out there heard from Kyle. In no way is it even acceptable for someone to contact his work. I mean, come on, if the three of us who were owed something didn't feel the need (not that any of us would have, had we felt like we were being treated, I'd like to think) to go further than posting something on a BA thread and/or continue to message Kyle about it, then why the heck would someone who isn't even involved in the matter feel the need to be a vigilante and contact Kyle's work!?! That baffles me.

 

I do understand the need to go that far IF (and a big IF) they fail to communicate and it has been on going for months and maybe this is a last resort to get what is owed to you. However, that was not the situation here and someone who wasn't even involved (I imagine, because I don't know who did it) went out of their way to do this to Kyle when it was no business of their own. We never felt like he was not going to fulfill his obligations but we did feel the need to put a feeler out there in the community to see what was up with him.