Difficulty vs. Popularity in BJCP scoring (in general)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by scurvy311, Dec 30, 2014.

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Difficulty vs. Popularity in BJCP scoring (in general)

Poll closed Jan 6, 2015.
  1. It does not matter, the consensus better beer wins

    10 vote(s)
    58.8%
  2. The dark American lager wins, in spite of it's association, bc of difficulty in making a great one

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  3. The beers associated more with craft beer have an edge over dark American lager

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  4. Judging is a crap shoot no matter what, so it's just a thought experiment yielding no valid info

    5 vote(s)
    29.4%
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  1. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (1,135) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    Using BJCP 4: Dark Lager category as an example, and a group of experienced/competent judges, theoretically, if you had three exactly equivalent examples of each a dark American lager, Munich dunkel, and schwarzbier, can the dark American lager trump the more "craft" dunkel or schwarzbier in competition? Another way to say it, I realize this situation in real life is more complicated than this, but all other things remaining equal, does the more "craft beer" association of dunkel/schwarzbier cause judges to overlook the dark American lager due to it possibly being seen as just a darker BMC in competition?
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  2. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,418) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    With good judges, it shouldn't matter. I've been at some best of show tables where there almost feels like a preference for the less "craft" styles because there is no where to hide flaws. An RIS or American IPA really needs to blow the judges out of the water to win, where returning to find the American Premium still tastes clean as it approaches room temperature may be enough for it to win.
     
    machalel, JChalifour, CASK1 and 4 others like this.
  3. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Fact: Dark American lager is not a very popular style commercially. As such I believe it is at a big disadvantage in a Best of Show setting. A German lager will win over a less popular style, at least here in the USA. If judged in Germany, I can only guess but I would imagine that the opposite may hold true but who really knows. This discussion is an example of the silly sorts of biases that I believe almost all judges have whether they are conscious of them or not. Best of Show judging is a huge crapshoot. However in this case, I do believe that the German styles would have a slight advantage due to the predominant biases at play in the USA. Now, if you put up the same German styles against an Imperial Dark American lager Category 23, then all bets are off, and actually this might even swing the advantage to the Imperial because Americans just love their Imperial shit.
     
    scurvy311 likes this.
  4. bluehende

    bluehende Initiate (0) Dec 10, 2010 Delaware

    My premise is that on any given day there are a few beers that could win. Any judge being human has taste differences. Depending on who the judge is that day probably has a lot to do with who wins. That variable is the biggest uncontrollable variable there is. I have won a contest and having tried a few of the other contestant's beers I would not have picked mine. The real value of competitions is to see if you have flaws in your beer that other people who have some form of credentials can find. Even saying this I would suggest sending to more than 1 competition to verify.
     
    MrOH likes this.
  5. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    If you look at the NHC Gold winners from 2004 to 2013 in category 4. Not all complete.
    Some categories you could say yes, others no.

    4a Dark American Lager - 2
    4b Munich Dunkel - 3
    4c Schwarzbier - 5

    Looking at Pilsners
    2a German Pils - 3
    2b Czech Pils - 4
    2c Classic American Pils - 3

    Category 1 is interesting
    1a Light American Lager - 4
    1b Standared American Lager - 2
    1c Premium American Lager - 0
    1d Munich Helles - 3
    1e Dortmunder Expoert - 1

    Light Hybrids
    6a Cream Ale - 3
    6b Blonde Ale - 2
    6c Koelsch - 4
    6d Am Wheat or Rye - 2

    Dark Hybrids
    7a N. German Altbier - 3
    7b California Common - 1
    7c Duesseldorf Altbier -5
     
    tngolfer, MrOH, dmtaylor and 2 others like this.
  6. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Savant (1,135) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    Awesome data points. Thx for compiling.
     
  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks for compiling this list. It confirms the general sense that I had over years the that some of the blander American styles have fared well in competition. It suggested to me that judges can be pretty good at assessing a beer's merits within the context of the beer's style. If I am not mistaken, there has even been one or more American lager that earned Homebrewer of the Year honors.
     
    scurvy311 likes this.
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Peter, I can report that the 2013 Homebrewer of the Year was Annie Johnson for her Light Lager called "Mow the Damn Lawn".

    I suspect that my wife helped her with naming that beer!?!:rolling_eyes:

    Cheers!
     
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  9. Scumbag81

    Scumbag81 Initiate (0) Sep 10, 2014 California
    Trader

    I think part of it is that it is easier to score the blander and lighter styles because one tends to look for faults (plus they stick out more) as opposed to optional characteristics that can make judging more of a personal preference.

    From 2012-2014, lighter beers won BOY for the NHC.
     
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  10. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    There might be something to this. Perhaps it is easier for judges to be more objective and reach a consensus with these styles because of their narrower guidelines. However, I hesitate to say anything that might sound like a detraction of these previous winners -- if I brewed a ribbon winning American lager (or any lager) I'd be pretty pumped up about it.
     
  11. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    This was the one I was most sure about.
    From my perspective, a better beer name would be "Shovel the Damn Snow off the Damn Driveway." Not sure what the style would be. Winter Warmer?
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, you would expect that to be a Winter Warmer although when I am done shoveling I am personally over-heated from the exertion so I wouldn't mind a Pale Lager afterwards. I still have some homebrewed Bohemian Pilsners; maybe I should save those for snow days!?!

    Cheers!
     
    pweis909 likes this.
  13. Scumbag81

    Scumbag81 Initiate (0) Sep 10, 2014 California
    Trader

    One of my best friends won gold at the NHC for his munich dunker lager and it was f*cking awesome. No flaws and was also a melanoiden bomb due to the abundance of munich malt and a triple decoction. His recent attempts to replicate it minus the decoction (replaced with lots of melanoiden malt) have been much more bland and not as well attenuated.
     
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  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    One comment on the NHC final round golds. Second round has more high level judges than your normal competition. The BOY is Master or maybe Grand Master and up.
     
  15. udubdawg

    udubdawg Initiate (0) Dec 11, 2006 Kansas

    lots of ways to go with this.
    I'd guess a majority of judges, when faced with three "exactly equivalent examples" would favor the styles they enjoy more. For most that is not going to be the Dark American Lager. However there's a subset who would say "Man, these are all great, but we so rarely see a good 4A that I'm leaning towards that beer"

    of course the next time I encounter 3 perfect examples of 3 different styles in a medal round, it'll be the first. And yes I know OP didn't say perfect - still. If there was a perfect 4C, and equally imperfect 4A/4B/4C in the top 4, I'd guess the imperfect 4C misses out on a medal - judges seem to like to reward multiple styles.

    in my opinion the bigger issue with judging is in Understood versus Misunderstood beers. But we're (slowly) getting better. excessively roasty schwarzbier, excessively fruity Kolsch, asking for more malt complexity in pils or helles, more hops in blonde ale, more body/creaminess in porter, more caramel in amber, accepting only bone-dry, peppery saison, smokiness in Scottish ales, rewarding Hop Juice pale ales or "are there splinters in my tongue?" wood aged beers or bourbon bombs or appley cider. But again, I remind myself: Slooooowly getting better.

    cheers--
    --Michael
     
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