Whippersnappers (Old Man Rant)

I may very well be in the minority here, but anytime I mention price, or bottle count, etc., it's because I'm looking to bring things back to the middle, if that makes sense.

To me, $4$ is very important, provided the limited nature of the beer is similar. very rarely do I subscribe to some "market-based perceived value" of a beer. KBBS is a $15 beer. Nothing I say will make it trade for $15 worth of beer. Thus, I don't comment on, or try to trade for KBBS.

Perhaps this better illustrates what I can't convey via words:
- I've certainly overpaid (from a $4$ perspective) for certain beers, i.e. $100+ worth of equally limited beer to land Cable Car '12, BUT...
- I've never once asked or expected someone to overpay for a beer I'm offering, i.e. a friend offered a crazy amount of fruited JK sours for my DBH, so I added Huna, and extra'd him 2 750 Cantillons.

 

If there was some way to require each post in that forum to tag the person the trade was completed with, that would safeguard against it. Would be a great idea, and get rid of those occasionally obnoxious if well-intentioned "X completed trades" threads.

 

You want to know what I hate? An obviously (to most) off trade thread with the OP posting "closed" without explanation for what precisely was closed.

I immediately don't believe that person.

 

Allowing more comments on the FT:ISO forums and disabling value threads in this section would just move the same value threads that were outlawed here into the FT:ISO forum. FT posts would be littered with more discussion that would essentially distract from the OP's objective (actually trading his beer) and derail into a discussion where people begin to argue about homerism, etc. This would also increase selective moderation and biased individuals reporting posts causing the mods to work more and the information to be skewed. We've all seen those threads in the ISO forum that really discusses the value of the beer that turns into a pissing match and then when you view it later only a handful of comments are left and they usually end up saying that the trade is fair (when there was a big discussion that it wasn't). I just think allowing more comments in the FT:ISO forum would not end up the way that people are imagining it.

Comments should be disabled in the FT:ISO forum. Crickets will speak for themselves if it doesn't get done or they can create a thread here to see what needs to get added or what not. Newbies should definitely be able to post threads in the beer trading HELP section if they need help. Also, people can just message other reputable BAs who they have seen post FT:ISO threads for certain beer to get their opinion. I do this quite often actually. Most of them are very eager to help out and share what they know from an (mostly, I hope) unbiased opinion. It saves both thread space and time while encouraging community.

I dunno, I just don't see using the Ft:ISO forum as a place to elaborate on the discussion of a fair trade will have the effect people are hoping it will.

 

I have no problem with objectively factual information being posted, although I do think that ideally that sort of information would make it's way into the database, rather than being spread through many threads in many sections of the forums. (I also am of the opinion that this information is not nearly as easy to come by by just "doing your research" as many people suggest.) There are, of course, challenges when aspects don't fit into tidy categories: significant price and availability differences in distributed beers, situations like BT or DBH where the majority of production is member-only but a small portion is sold to the public, and of course breweries who don't release bottle counts. But, it would be nice to have verifiable information gathered somewhere.

Obviously, the facts are not the only thing determining "trade value", either in aggregate or for individuals, but I personally am not afraid of having those facts be publicly available on any of my trades.

 

This is just a thought, and I apologize if someone has brought up the idea. I'm new to beer trading but I've been conducting trades, sales and purchases of firearms via forums for many years now. One very prominent gun forum (ar15.com) has a very explicit rule about threadshitting. Rule no 11 from their equipment exchange rules: Absolutely no stomping on other peoples' posts! Do not remark in any way that would negatively impact the sale of someone's merchandise. Do not post comments, opinions or make low-ball offers in threads.

The punishment for threadstomping is having your account locked and then eventually banned if you continue to do it. I think the idea is that if you think someone is out to lunch just keep your comments to yourself. Personally I feel the negatives outweigh the positives for allowing folks to comment with advice for trades. For every truly helpful guy "hey man I think you might need to up your offer because of reason x" there are ten that are condescending, rude or just trying to inflate the value of their own beer.

So maybe we continue to allow comments but the moderators look for threadshitting and any whatsoever results in a 1 day account lock, 2 day for second offense, etc

 

And I guess this kind of illustrates what I mean when I write not all comments are good, or bad.

Some,people comment in a genuine attempt to be helpful. Some comment Ina genuine attempt to protect their own interests. Some people are truthful in their comments, others lie, or, more kindly, post incorrect information.

I don't know that throwing the baby out with the bath water is the answer.

I also don't know that more rules or increased moderation is the answer either.

 

This is a good point, but what stops someone from doing this now? You could always make it a requirement that they tag the other person in the completed trades forum, so outsiders have the ability to at least see a trade was made (by going into their profile) and the other trader gets an alert, so they can call bullshit if someone fakes the details. Can't see a way to prevent collusion, but the hope is by sheer numbers, it would be at least a little more transparent.

 

Respectful, open discussion is among the best ways to keep things transparent.

I've seen several instances where inexperienced traders were given a heads up that the offer they posted was stupid generous & subsequently opted to change or close the offer. Some members recently posted that they had no idea the whatsit Snow beer was only $10/bottle or as available as it apparently is. (It's obviously a beer I'm not interested in, lol) In another thread an experienced trader discovered that he traded away a highly sought after beer for very little. Equally important, those reading the threads also has an opportunity to learn. An open exchange of info is -imo- almost always a good thing.

 

It is quite hard to come up with a technological solution for a website to change the attitude of some of its users.

 

Politics aside, I think the way firearms sales are conducted and how beer trades are conducted differ enough in two key areas to render this somewhat moot.

The first is that when selling firearms, one side is cash which has a concrete value, so only one side's offering is being valued. That is never the case here as "sale" is not allowed.

The second is that while firearms are pieces of equipment, a sku on a shelf, beer is a living thing with much wider variance ir quality and subjectivity to its worth.

 

Actually if I read that, it looks like gun trades happen too, which sounds even more ridiculously illegal than alcohol trades. And I would imagine there are plenty of collectible guns too, just as there are collectible beers. Even so the point of the post was to say "punishment for threadshitting should be much stronger" which is much more on topic to this thread.

 

@LehighAce06 Totally understand, I know it doesn't translate completely but my point was still the same because that rule extended even to the trades section of the forum. Thread stomping just seems classless, and self serving. I think if someone has concrete advice to give to a new trader its best via PM. The quickest way to turn people off is to embarrass them when they are just getting in to a hobby. Also thanks for pointing out that politics have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This isn't a debate forum and I'm not trying to bring my politics into it....unless it has to do with helping folks in states fight dumb alcohol laws

@WTKeene You got the point of my post completely

 

Helfpul comments are needed on the SW IP Trade DFW post right now...vanilla for 3 provenance hahahah

 

OK, throwing another .02 in, might need some more change after this...

So it seems the PRO-comments in ISO/FT forum are using "helpful for info" and "to protect noobs from wolves" for their strongest points.

To play devil's advocate (since I like comments and read purely for entertainment but dislike the "Beckett book of beer" many try to protect):

"Comments Helpful for info": (counter argument)
Have a thread for each new major (and mid-major!) bottle release, STARTED by a MOD with the release info and possibly CLOSED for comments or closed once all pertinent info has been released.
Again, for example:
Maple Bacon Coffee Porter
$15 per bottle
Initial brewery-only release with 4 bottles per person
Released again at 2/person
10,000 bottles
Link to Beer Advocate beer's page where rating, ranking, style, etc all noted.

This would be EASY for everyone to find. All you have to do is go to Trade Help and scroll or search the bottle title.

"Comments help vets protect the NOOBs from wolves": (counter argument)
First off, MOST Noob posts that are "off" are off in the wrong direction and no responses is good enough and will force the NOOB to actually look into what they want. IE I have access to Jai Alai and looking for Mornin' Delight.
*I'd actually be interested if anyone could point me towards a couple examples of NOOBS drastically "undervaluing" their rare bottle for shelf beers.

Secondly, say a NOOB really did just walk into Toppling Goliath and bought a $15 KBBS bottle and wanted a 4-pack of Heady - the true Beer Advocates would be messaging his box full telling him NOT to do it - crisis avoided.
OR, he'd go through with the trade and be thrilled with his Heady Topper...maybe one day realizing he could have profiteered the crap out of the bottle.

Lastly: should we, as a community, really be worried about new people (or anyone for that matter) NOT taking advantage of the rarity or profiteering that they COULD be getting from there bottle? Should that actually be a concern?
I mean, I think the person on the other end who doesn't take care of the Noob with extras bottles and stuff would be a less then ideal person.

Fun discussion either way, and my only concern or complaint at this point is the Maximizing Values and Protecting Values which both seem to be fed by Comments in ISO/FT and those gastly "What can I get for my bottle" threads. Cheers

 

One more reason to keep comments: it allows assholes the opportunity to publicly reveal themselves as such. Id much rather find out that someone is a jerk by reading their homerism and value manipulation and put them on my DNT list early, than find out their true colors when they're saying in private message "If you don't accept my trade of two prop for your Ann in the next 10 minutes I'm going to do the trade with one of the 4 other people who are eager to get ***** too."

 

To be fair, this entire site allows them that opportunity, and they do seem to seize it with amazing predictability. Checking a person's post history is one of the first things I do when I think about responding to an ISO. If someone consistently acts like a douchebag, I'm not sending them my beer no matter what they're offering in return.

 

I think I remember this exact same scenario happening not to long ago and the guy forcing the trade tried to call out the guy who ended up not wanting to do it. Complete backfire. It was sad.

 

What if we allowed a thread one day a week where people discuss the trade value of different beers. Anyone comes in and says what do I need to trade for x or what can I expect to be a fair offer for this. It could be similar to the nbs thread but for trade value instead. That way people could have the opportunity to still seek out trade values but prevent the site from being littered with dozens of different threads pertaining to value. Just aggregate them all into one thread.