Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #23 - Mash Type

I certainly appreciate the attention to detail that our leader-in-this-madness puts into the process of crowdsourcing this recipe (as well as precious recipes). But this poll makes me contemplate which aspects of the process should simply be left up to the individual brewers? I am not necessarily suggesting that this is one such aspect, but it has made me ask the question.

That said, I do think that discussion regarding this aspect is well worth having.

If I make this beer I will likely do what I do for all of my beers -- sac rest and mashout -- unless I am convinced to do otherwise. I would guess that this is what most brewers will do.

Also, those who fly sparge (I'm in this group) typically achieve the mashout by directly heating the mash (in my case to 165 F) before sparging.

Cheers!

 

Agree that a mash out for a saison isn't necessary. However the detrimental part of protein rests are that that take a lot of the body away and thin the beer if you're using fully modified malt at around 75% or higher. Flaked wheat isn't fully modified and comprises of 17% of the grain bill. In addition to possibly better clarity protein rest actually aid head retention in grain bills that are less than 75% fully modified malt. Protein rests also allow the peptidase to break down the proteins into peptides and amino acids that aid yeast health. I agree with what you're saying, but it really depends on the grain bill and this particular one is right on the fence for me. could go either way.

 

This particular process step in question can impact the out come of the beer. We've voted that we want a bone dry saison 1.002. So we need to take steps to achieve that, one of those steps is to not do a mash out. Skipping the mash out will help produce a more fermentable wort. To me it's not about capability or preference, it's simply about making the appropriate process adjustments to meet your attenuation goal.

 

Changed my vote based on this post. I didn't really put it all together in my own mind like this but it makes sense to me.

 

Exactamundo.

 

Could the same result be reached by doing a longer mash, 90 minutes vs 60, and then doing a mash out?

FWIW, I switched my vote to no mash out based on your post.

 

I would agree with this if we were only using Sacch...as we're co-pitching with Brett...my vote for a mash out was to give it more to munch on. Which I assumed (keyword) would also up the Brett character.

 

Brett should be in quotes but you make a good point

 

We are pitching the "Brett" from a starter at 1.033 of a 1.045 wort alongside a Sacc strain prone to slowing to 3-weeks-of- creep at around 1.027... This is already shaping up to be a "Brett" Trois fermented Saison with a splash of Dupont spice. Make this wort as fermentable as humanly possible in hopes that the Sacc actually gets to do the bulk of the work and the "Brett" adds complexities.

 

Doesn't this assume that the slowing is due to fermentability?

I admit, I wasn't taking the possibility of a stall into consideration...and neither does it seem those that chose 1.033 as the pitching point...or maybe they were?

 

I am assuming that the simpler the sugar composition, the shorter the stall. Farmhouse Ales seems to attribute the stall factor in the Dupont strains to it being mostly Red Wine yeasts that have adapted over time to eating malt sugars, but still struggle to some degree with them, as well as low levels of DAP in the wort. Simpler sugars and higher dosing of nutrient should help to stave it off, as well as later generations of the yeast pitch.

 

I'll go out on a limb and say no one in this recipe group has ever pitched 644 into a primary behind 3724 . . . so speculation and no real experience. If I'm mistaken, then graciously welcome input from brewers with this experience. Why the Gang of 39 wanted this still escapes me but this is where we are.

RE: Stalling - - - I used Dupont three times in the last year and FGs were 1.002, 1.000, 1.003 and that occurs within about 8 days. All of these brews had an OG in the mid-1.050 range and all three had a mash-out. I ferm in the low 80s so if the group votes for something measurably less then who knows. But if ferm'ed warm, I suspect the first dozen points will drop within 24 hours of the yeast starting. Can not say with certainty because I've never measured after 24 hours but will listen to those with a more active hydrometer. There is a reason this early phase is called exponential growth . . . who thinks the SG will not be dropping at an exponential rate?

RE: Finishing - - - Just because "we" voted to stop the fermentation at 1.002 doesn't mean the yeast are listening. If pitched with two healthy strains (and warm) the real danger is finishing too low. Here's where the 1.045 OG (i.e. low ABV) is really working against the desired outcome. But that's where the recipe is.

But pay no attention to my vote above . . . I'm taking Vikeman's advice and will flop at the last minute. You know, open two browers with digital second hand on one side and "change your vote" on the other . . . just like bidding on ebay.

 

Saison dupont is mashed in continuously starting @ 110 degreesish and raised up to 160 degrees at a rate of half a degree a minute while the mash is continuously stirred. Seems the BA groupthink is running counter intuitive to what the Belgians actually do. Surprisingly almost all the commercial examples around use a step mash....

 

Another data point, I have a saison fermenting right now, brewed last Wed (7 days).

8# Pils
1# Munich (6L)
OG: 1.046

1L Dupont dregs
Mashed at 150 for 60 mins then mash out at 168
Fermentation temp @ 75 (might have been higher, but did not drop lower)

Just took a gravity reading (1.002) Krausen has basically dropped, I see no reason why the gravity will fall more, but I am leaving it there until the weekend.

Smelled awesome, tasted like it has some potential

 

Maybe its because we lack the equipment to do that or we are just really lazy.