Density separation in beer

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by maedhros09, Feb 18, 2015.

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  1. maedhros09

    maedhros09 Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2015 Minnesota

    Often with stronger beers I prefer to divide a 12 oz bottle into two separate pours, usually two consecutive evenings. I guess I always understood that the two pours might not be exactly alike - for example any yeast sediment is unlikely to make it into the first pouring. However, I didn't really expect that it would result in a significantly different flavor character...until now.

    I recently tried the Founder's Imperial Stout using this method and the two pours were without a doubt different. The first pour seemed both very sweet up front and excessively bitter in the finish - not my cup of tea. However, the second pour was much milder, particularly in the finish. I can't say for sure if it was less sweet, but the overall impression was that it was better balanced and more enjoyable.

    This leads me to believe that the hops flavors (or whatever other bitter flavors were there) must have been concentrated towards the top of the bottle.

    Is it that the bitterness is concentrated in oils that float to the top?

    Has anyone else had this experience?
     
  2. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    No the bitterness is throughout the beer. But notice that your second pour has been exposed to more oxygen for a longer period of time. It probably also has lower carbonation, etc..

    Edit: Also is it possible that there may be a temperature difference?

    Edit: BTW, its also possible that your perception of the flavors was influenced by having had different foods on the two days. There is a carry over effect....
     
    #2 drtth, Feb 18, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
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  3. SammyJaxxxx

    SammyJaxxxx Initiate (0) Feb 23, 2012 New Jersey

    Here's your problem,
    You need to shake it well before opening.
    Make sure everything is mixed evenly
     
  4. gcamparone

    gcamparone Pooh-Bah (2,131) Dec 6, 2011 Rhode Island
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've experienced what you're talking about but usually attribute it to solids settling at the bottom of the bottle - could be wrong though.
     
  5. maedhros09

    maedhros09 Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2015 Minnesota

    Actually I am usually impressed that these imperial stouts are nearly as carbonated on the second pour as on the first - I seal them pretty well. But I guess air exposure could have something to do with the difference in flavor. The serving temperatures were different (cellar for first and fridge for second) but I took my time with both so they ended up pretty similar. The bitterness only seemed to get more noticeable with the first pour as it warmed whereas the second one was consistently less bitter. The food idea is intriguing but I don't think it can account for the significant bitterness on the first pour (it was not subtle at all).

    I do sometimes position them upside down for a minute or two to try to dislodge the sediment a bit. Not sure it makes a difference.
     
  6. nickfl

    nickfl Initiate (0) Mar 7, 2006 Florida

    It's called oxidation. If you are saving half a beer for the next day it's going to get stale and flat. This will have a noticeable effect on the flavor. And no, " sealing them pretty well" doesn't help. The co2 escapes into the headspace, a half empty beer will lose most of its carbonation even if sealed, similar issues with O2. the only thing that is odd here is that you haven't noticed this before.
     
  7. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes. In two parts. Good beer (for the most part) handles better as it comes to ambient temp. i.e. Flavor country.
    Also, yeast settles out, and there's another component of flavor in that sediment. If you want it through out. Take that bottle and relax the yeast by gently rolling it on a flat surface of your choice.
     
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  8. Lorianneb

    Lorianneb Pundit (919) Apr 27, 2012 New Jersey

    The second service was a lot colder than the first. The colder a beer, the more the flavor is masked. Also, salt masks the hop bitterness. So if you had something salty, like pretzels or chips, it won't seem as bitter.
     
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  9. maedhros09

    maedhros09 Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2015 Minnesota

    I guess you didn't read the post. The beer was neither stale nor flat. It was more delicious.

    Thanks all for the input.
     
  10. rozzom

    rozzom Pooh-Bah (2,620) Jan 22, 2011 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    In short - not surprising that the first half and the second half tasted different - multiple factors at play (many of which have been mentioned).

    I cooked a steak, ate half and then ate the other half the next day after heating it back up in the oven. They tasted different.
     
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  11. TylerKitchens

    TylerKitchens Initiate (0) Apr 9, 2014 Massachusetts

    Just drink a full 12 oz beer...

    You must have extreme discipline I couldn't just drink half of a Founder's Imperial Stout...
     
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  12. Sumdeus

    Sumdeus Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2014 Indiana

    Maybe you prefer that beer less carbonated and with more oxidation?
     
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  13. otispdriftwood

    otispdriftwood Initiate (0) Dec 9, 2011 Colorado

    Next time, buy 2 12 oz. bottles, man up and drink an entire bottle at a sitting. This way, you'll be closer to comparing apples to apples, rather than comparing apples to oranges.
     
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  14. maedhros09

    maedhros09 Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2015 Minnesota

    Was there something offensive about my post? I honestly didn't expect this level of derision. I drink it in two sittings because I get more enjoyment out of it that way. Why should you care?
     
    #14 maedhros09, Feb 18, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  15. misternebbie

    misternebbie Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2014 Pennsylvania

    To much science for a guy who spent as much time in centerfield as Nebbie
     
  16. azorie

    azorie Pooh-Bah (2,471) Mar 18, 2006 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    what was temp of both? if you let 1 sit in bottle, them I can see why.
     
  17. pagriley

    pagriley Pooh-Bah (2,382) Oct 27, 2014 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I second comments about oxidation.

    I am a wine drinker as well, and it is a very common thing to 'open' big red wines over a number of days. Basically you are leaving the wine exposed to oxygen for longer and longer periods of time and this provides a facsimile of how a wine might age over decades in the sealed bottle.

    Same thing is happening with beer - that is why I haven't even opened any of my founders imperial stout!! I bought a couple of 4 packs and slung most of them up the back of my cellar to wait 6 months to a year before drinking. I usually will get to one after 2 or 3 months, but more out of curiosity and impatience than preference for the 'fresh' flavors.

    The exact opposite is happening with hoppy beers and drinking them fresh - however, I do sometimes prefer some IPAs with a few weeks of bottle age on them for flavors to settle down - really fresh (as in bottled that week) can be harsh
     
  18. maedhros09

    maedhros09 Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2015 Minnesota

    Thanks - very enlightening. Next time I get the Founders I will hole it up for a bit.
     
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  19. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Based on what you say here and other places, I'm thinking that the primary source of difference is the oxidation between your first pour to having the second portion. When the beer is bottled the brewery takes great pains to minimize the amount of oxygen in the head space because that is one factor that leads eventually to staling. (All other things being equal, the more oxygen the more rapidly staling takes place. Indeed some suggest that the process of the beer going stale begins at the moment of bottling as a very small amount of oxygen is trapped in the head space to contribute to the aging of the beer even though CO2 is injected into the bottle before the beer goes in.)

    When you've opened the bottle, poured, and then re-capped it there will be some loss of carbonation as the CO2 leaves the beer until the much larger head space is re-pressurized (happens all the time with carbonated beverages whether beer or sodas). However your pour and re-capping the beer also traps plain old air inside the bottle and that has lots more oxygen in it (both absolute and percentage amount) than even what was inside the bottle at the time of bottling. Even though you've refrigerated the beer from first pour to second all that oxygen will result in faster aging (staling) of the beer.

    Also food eaten earlier in the day can have an effect on flavors you pick up from the beer. I've had two bottles from the same six pack taste different enough from one night to the next that I have no other choice but to implicate the effects of food earlier in the day. Especially since I began learning a lot more about pairing beer and food at mealtimes. Those two things interacting directly can make a huge difference in both.
     
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  20. pagriley

    pagriley Pooh-Bah (2,382) Oct 27, 2014 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Or just experiment! I have a few years of various things (ten fidy, founders impy, bells expedition) and am finding that I prefer different ones at different stages, and sometimes one year isn't as nice as another fresh, but is better with age! Also, I have found that I really like SN Bigfoot fresh, and with 3 years age, but in the middle (say 1 year old) it isn't my favorite - the fresh hops have faded, but the dried fruit and sherry notes you get with oxidation aren't coming through yet. All beers are different and even the same beer is different from year to year.

    If you are not sure about a particular beer, then try one fresh, and leave half in the fridge with a stopper pressed into the bottle. I use a champagne cork thing to maintain some carbonation: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000TF4AM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

    I often pour the beer and let it sit for 20 minutes if it is a stout (so it warms up) and if I like it the 2nd day, I will stash the rest of the bottles I have for a few months and try another one!

    It varies a lot even for very similar beers; at least for my preferences, but you will probably like different things at different ages! After a few experiments you will start noticing flavors in fresh beer that you think will be better with a bit of age.
     
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