Lager yeast going really slow

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by GeeL, Mar 20, 2015.

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  1. GeeL

    GeeL Initiate (0) Aug 27, 2008 Massachusetts

    Hi. I don't have a lot of experience with brewing and fermenting lagers. I brewed two on Sunday, one is with WLP840 American lager, the other with WLP820 Oktoberfest lager. With ales, after 3 days the airlock has really picked up and is beginning to slow down.

    These batches are going really slow. The airlocks show a slow movement, I have to look closely to see movement, and I don't have the locks that full, just enough so there's a bubble. I know airlocks aren't a true indicator of anything, but this just seems slow. Both have some krausen, but not a lot. Fermentation temp is 50 degrees.

    Here's a concern: I pitched the yeast at 65 degrees, then put the fermentation buckets in a bin with 50 degree water. Did I essentially "cold crash" the yeast and they're having a hard time catching up? Should I warm this up a bit?

    Of course, I'm having a home brew and trying to relax. I'm sure I'lll get beer no matter what. I just want it to be good beer.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  2. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    lager yeast is supposed to take its time. i wouldn't be too concerned because it isn't acting like a typical ale yeast. in fact if the fermentation is going too strong your yeast is probably busy making a beer that is too much like an ale.

    hard to say if you shocked the yeast, but not likely. the preferred and more recent method of achieving lager fermentation temp is to start a bit lower than desired and bring it up to your target fermentation temp. starting high and bringing the yeast down is not a sin, but consider that much of the yeast characteristic is introduced within the first few days of fermentation and you can see that a clean lager requires a low and slow initial fermentation. 65 is high for any lager strain.

    lagers can take a week or more to fully ferment, and then you will want to lager anyway. you should also think about a diacetyl rest. it makes a huge difference.

    you're in this for the long haul. keep on RDWHAHB.
    Cheers.
     
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  3. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    I was about to make another thread on my lager yeast getting done in 6 days. I'm going home, checking the calibration on my refrac and I'm going to measure again.
     
  4. GeeL

    GeeL Initiate (0) Aug 27, 2008 Massachusetts

    I know 65 is high for a lager strain, but I thought the starter followed a similar protocol as ales. I had the starter at 65-70 deg or so, then let them come down to the temp of the wort. I think the Oktoberfest I pitched in the upper 50s actually. Once the buckets were in the water, I have no doubt they got to 50 pretty quick.
     
  5. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah


    Correct that you focus on yeast growth during any starter. Optimal temp is a little warmer than room temp, IIRC. So 50 isn't great, 68 is good, and 75-80 is probably amazing.
     
  6. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    It's good that you made starters, that was my first question. But how big were your starters? It's not unusual to make 1-gallon starters for 5 gallons of beer, then just pitch the yeast slurry from the bottom.

    I agree with everything billandsuz said above. I think your beers will turn out fine. Slow ferment at cool lager temperatures is very normal. That being said, I will add this:

    WLP820 is a shit yeast that should not be sold. It's the slowest, lowest attenuating, poorest tasting lager yeast on the market. There is no reason for it to exist anymore. Please pardon my bold statement however it is based on a lot of personal experience as well as the experience of my friends. We try it and it's just not very good. So next time try Wyeast 2206 and you will not be sorry. Lots of people claim that WLP820 and 2206 are equivalent. This is completely false. Maybe they started out the same 40 years ago or something, but they might have evolved to the point where they are not at all the same anymore. You can also try WLP830, WLP833, WLP838, heck... any other lager yeast in the universe will turn out better than WLP820. Sorry, sorry... just trying to help, don't say I didn't warn you. If they didn't sell it then I wouldn't have to warn you. Don't get me wrong... Your beer will turn out passable. You will drink it and you might even enjoy it. But could have been better with any other lager yeast.

    Good luck and have a great day.
     
  7. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    A large pitch rate is needed for lagers, 2X the rate for ales. Pure O2 helps as lager yeast really benefits. I pitch cool, maybe 45-46F for a 50F fermentation. Lagers also get the recommended dose of Wyeast yeast nutreint. With all of that my lagers are often done with the primary and D-rest in 5 to 6 days.

    When I started doing lagers, the fermentation was very slow, but I did not do most of the above steps.
     
  8. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Now tell me the truth. How do you feel about WLP820?
     
    GeeL, JackHorzempa, PortLargo and 2 others like this.
  9. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    This adviced is echo'ed by White/Jainasheff in Yeast. They also state it's accepatable to pitch in the mid 60s and lower . . . this helps growth in the lag phase, but the preferred method is to pitch the correct number of cells at a temp slightly lower than desired and let fermentation raise it to optimum.

    Regarding starters: Desired temps are 65 - 75 with lager yeast on the lower end. For best results add nutrient and oxygen, just like in the primary. But here's where you really want to get familiar with a calculator; for 5 gal batches at medium OG's you are looking at 400+B cells. With a single vial you're talking step-starters and I would definitely have a target in mind rather than just mixing up some starter-wort and hoping. How old was your yeast and what size starters did you make?

    From my experience be ready for a longer lag time and don't expect much of a krausen. Waiting 12+ hours for the growth phase to start and a high-krausen mark of only an inch high is common. You've nailed the "relax" part. :slight_smile:
     
    #9 PortLargo, Mar 20, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  10. GeeL

    GeeL Initiate (0) Aug 27, 2008 Massachusetts

    Well, Zima, thanks for that uplifting note. :wink: Now I'm wondering if I should rebrew the beer. Of course I won't trash this one, but it would be interesting to try it with a different yeast. Anyway, come the fall I'll know how it turned out.

    As for pitching, I completely forgot that I should use a bigger starter. I made a starter in the AM, pitched the yeast, got them to wake up and start doing their thing, brewed, and pitched them into their respective worts after brewing was done. So, I'm completely convinced and have no doubt I under pitched. The poor little buggers, they're swimming in a giant pool of wort and it's like an open ocean to them. No wonder they're struggling a bit.

    Anyway, I know I'll get beer. That 820 is going really slow. The two lagers are sharing a fermentation bin (I use a big Rubbermaid bin filled w/ water and an aquarium heater and Johnson Controller) so I can't increase the heat of one to liven it up w/o affecting the other. Any thoughts?

    Diacetyl rest: as slow as these are going, I'm thinking of waiting 2 wks or so before increasing the temp to 60 or so. Thoughts?

    Thanks again.
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I'd wait until attenuation is almost finished. I wouldn't go by a calendar.
     
  12. Ilanko

    Ilanko Initiate (0) Aug 3, 2012 New York

    Lager yeast fermentation is steep hill compere with Ale yeast fermentation.
    lager lower temperature slow yeast activity and cell metabolism slow too. That's way you need to improve metabolism condition such as yeast cell (bigger starter), extra o2, healthy vitality yeast.
    enjoy climb the Lager hill
     
  13. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    This is really reassuring to hear that you can get fermentation done in a week. I won't sweat the Bock that I just made. The OG was around 1.075. I know I overpitched, because I pulled from a yeast cake, made a 2 liter starter on a plate and ran with it. The yeast is on it's forth beer and then I'll be done with it. The fermentation was never aggressive, but persistent blowoff activity for three days.

    Now if I can just keep my hands off this beer while it tastes like green apples for another 4 months....
     
  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    For big lagers it can take a little longer, more like 6-7 days, so yeah a week is good. You may also want to set those a degree or 2 cooler to minimize fusels.
     
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  15. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    Next time I'll ramp it up from 50 or so. I started at 55, it stayed put quite well, and was finished in about 5 or 6 days. I ramed it up to 70 to attempt a D rest, and now it's back down to 60. I'll let it go for a week and start lagering.
     
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