Crooked Stave Blackberry Petite Sour Question

It's probably just the brett. Their pure guava petite sour smelled like dirty diapers (good taste on that one though). It's just the nature of the style.

 

Butyric acid.

Chad Yakobson of Crooked Stave explains it in this podcast at the 1:51 mark: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/866

Basically one of the base beers for Blackberry Petite Sour was no-boil and spontaneously soured, which resulted in a lot of butyric acid, which smells like bile/vomit. Over time, brett turns it into an ester called ethyl butyrate, which smells like pineapple/tropical fruit.

Guessing that some of the butyric acid is still detectable on the nose.

But listen to that podcast, because it's fascinating in general and he obviously explains it much better than I can.

 

I didn't get these smells with my experience with it.

 

What Rake said. CS beers showcase the 'evolution' of brett within a beer. While I have had the Blackberry, the original Petite Sour was close to bile when it was young. As it aged, it turned into a very good beer.

 

I literally just watched this video haha

 

little boy brett come blow your horn...

 

Must resist the "cool story bro" reply....

 

My guess is that all of the bottles had the issue; Chad has posted a lot about the formation of butyric acid in these beers here and elsewhere, and he says that the Brett cleans it up over time. The cleanup time could well be a function of the bottle history. If you bought multiple bottles from the same shop, and stored them similarly, then the others you have may still need some cleanup. Personally, I'd leave your remaining bottle(s) in a closet at room temperature for a few weeks or maybe a month before trying anymore, just to speed up the conditioning.

 

Just from my limited experience, I've gotten the 'vomit' smell from two CS beers...weirdly, all great tasting.

 

i got the smell and flavor from a tommyknockers saison. very off putting.

 

The early Crooked Stave beers were laden with that. This was back before they were bottling, but were on-tap in a few places. I couldn't stand them. However, almost everything I've had from them lately (I haven't had the Blackberry) has been quite good and totally missing that bile/vomit note. Some have been genuinely amazing.
I guess it's not a total shock that at least one would still have it. I've gotten it from a couple other brett beers over the years. The (normally great) Uinta Birthday Suit was definitely a bile monster.
It makes me a little paranoid that this is sometimes considered normal and "no big deal" though. If it's as offputting as it seems to be for so many of us, I'm not sure I'd even sell something questionable. If people on here don't like it, I'd hate for some guy who normally drinks Fat Tire or Yeungling to try one. He'd probably go back to Bud.

 

I had it at Sourfest and truly enjoyed it, but everyone I was with complained it had the same vomit issue as Pure Guava Petite Sour, which I definitely noticed when I had that. I've heard the Pure Guava is now fine, so I'd say stash it and bring it out at a later date. Too many people I know have made the comment for me to believe it's bottle variation.

 

I as well, got the weird nose/flavors off the Tommy Knocker saison, but after it was left to breathe for a bit and warmed up the flavors were gone.

To the OP, as I'm sure you know with your experience, brett beer can be a roller coaster of smells and flavors at any time from bottling to consumption. Just like with some reds that have a few peak years of being at their greatest and then can fall off, and then a few years more come back. Chad is VERY into the concept of beer evolution pertaining to brett and age, and one of his great wishes is that people would buy a few and try them along their journey. But honestly I always tell him he gives too many beer geeks WAY too much credit, as many just try something and are immediately put off. I've been guilty of it too in the past, but I try to revisit stuff I didn't like before now, since palates, flavors, and opinions change.

The biggest complaint I heard from so many people regarding PBBS was that it wasn't sour enough. Usually, I just look at them and try to figure out what part of "petite" they really weren't catching on to lol.

 

I think Chad’s vision is pretty ambitious (in a VERY good way) but I’m still wary about how off-putting some of those beers were in their early stages. It isn’t often you run into other breweries releasing them in that state, and I think it’s for that reason. I’ve had a LOT of beers in my life, and that bile/vomit note is something I’ve probably only encountered in maybe 6-7 beers ever. It’s also one of the few things I pretty much can’t handle. Per this site and others, I don’t seem to be alone in that. It seems to have been pretty evident with some batches back when CS first started.

I know he’s going balls out and releasing them, knowing they’ll change and probably for the better so you can compare. I’d still be concerned about anyone buying one for $12 and pretty much swearing them off forever. If I hadn’t kept up with BA (and his and other posts on here), I probably wouldn’t have been in much hurry to revisit either…and I’d miss a TON of awesome beers he’s been putting out. I’m loving the WWB series. Truly amazing – all of ‘em. Petite Sour’s great, too. In fact, pretty much everything I’ve had from them in the last year has been. I think I’d just be cautious about those young brett beers and how they can come across if you don’t know anything about CS and what he’s doing. That said - nothing I've had from them since the VERY early days has had that note.

 

The vomit flavors in the TK saison seemed to come on as it warmed for me. Tried it again with the same reesults, I'll stick with colette.

As for CS, I think very few people, beer geeks included, can wrap their heads around the idea of brett evolution. If the idea is to revisit the same batch several times over the course of years how can you complain about itnow? Especiallly after hearing that. The brett should take the bile nose and turn it into tropical fruit over time. Throw that shit in your cellar and sit on it for a year or two. If it still smells like puke, let your third bottle sit another year. I'm no ciserone, I can't even spell it,but it's pretty easy to hear what a brewer expects from his beers and to follw direction.

 

I think it's important to note that butyric acid (vomit, parmesan cheese) is produced by bacteria, so it's Crooked Stave's method of no boil/spontaneous fermentation that causes the butyric acid. The brettanomyces then consumes the butyric acid and produces the pleasant esters mentioned above. If you have a CS beer with butyric acid characteristics, give it time. Those unpleasant aromas and flavors should drop below threshold.

Please don't think that butyric acid is just part of Brett beers, Saisons, sours, etc., and is something to be expected. That wasn't directed at you Domingo. It's just a general comment that I want others to understand. I was recently drinking (actually I didn't drink it. I couldn't even put it to my lips) a sour beer that I'm guessing was spontaneously fermented, and it reeked of blue cheese and vomit. I wouldn't even consume blue cheese that smelled that strongly, and I love blue cheese. Anyway, there were people around me that should have been fairly knowledgeable, and one of them said, "well, that's just the way sour beers are." They seemed to enjoy the beer despite the stench. They almost seemed to convince themselves it was good because it was supposed to be that way. How many Cantillon or Russian River beers have you had with that aroma or flavor?

If you have a beer with those off-flavors, 99% of the time, it's not intentional and is due to bacterial contamination. It likely will not fade.

One other note: this is in no way a slight of CS. I know those Petite beers will improve. I've experienced it, and his other beers are really good. There just seemed to be some confusion on this subject that I hope to clarify. Also, I'm not expert, but this is my understanding of this particular compound.

 

I think my one issue with having to give something time (off the shelf) is that it doesn't really apply across different genres.
What if Bill Eye decided to open Prost today and sell his Pilsner, after only letting it lager for 2 weeks. Servings are full price with no warning.
"All of that sulphur you're tasting today, well it'll be gone with my batch next month." I'm showing you what a little extra lagering time will do.
People would want his head and question why he's selling something like that.

Those early CS beers were served on tap in a several places - so you can't sit on those, and there wasn't any warning about them being a learning experience.

Everything I've had from CS lately has kicked ass, and honestly, this conversation might not apply to them at all anymore. But I'm just not a believer in selling something as a finished product and unless someone researches your product online - they might think they made an awful $12-14 mistake they'll never make again.