The Definitive Knock-down, Drag-out Cloudy Beer Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Page 1 of 15
  1. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    Forget the tongue-in-cheek, ominous thread title -- let's keep things civil and well-reasoned here. That said...

    Many have noted an emergence (as to when this all began, I can't really determine) of very cloudy ales, typically IPAs and pale ales. Some have called this a Vermont, or New England, style of ales. Whatever the nomenclature, their appearance is fairly distinctive -- a definite lack of clarity, otherwise described as cloudy, hazy, turbid, etc. (depending on your perspective).

    Some folks think this presentation and brewing technique is an abomination, leaving all manner of brewing byproducts -- yeast proteins, hop particles, etc. -- to muddy the flavor, not to mention appearance/aroma/etc, of the beer. Others think this phenomenon is a welcome arrival, bringing better mouthfeel, more intense fruit flavors and aroma, etc.

    I've been pondering a few questions about this topic lately, and I'd love to hear others's takes.

    1. How did we historically determine which styles were acceptably cloudy (say, hefeweizen) and which were not (say, pilsner, or, sort of generally speaking, IPAs (BJCP allows for some slight haziness from dry-hopping, I believe)?

    2. If you're opposed to the hazy ales, what specific brewing flaws do you believe they demonstrate?

    My full disclosure: I tend to be skeptical of the sometimes wild fanaticism of the pro-haze folks. I've been fortunate to drink a lot of beer, including some of the NE's finest, and I find no discernible correlation between haze and quality of the beer. I've had hazy, downright turbid beer that I really enjoyed (Heady; Trillium Fort Point Pale Ale; etc.), and I've had ones that, though much lauded by the BA crowd, just didn't wow me (Focal Banger; Trillium's Congress Street; Fiddleadhead Second Fiddle, etc.) (*I don't mean to name names to put anyone on blast -- just one man's take on examples of the style.)

    My skepticism notwithstanding, I do wonder whether there's anything actually wrong with brewing these haze-bombs, or whether they're just a matter of preference. (Though I suppose that, at the end of the day, almost anything beer-related really comes down to preference, BJCP/Reinheitsgebot/etc be damned.) Regardless, interested indeed to hear some takes on the matter and to, perhaps, get a clearer (no pun intended) understanding of the debate. Cheers!
     
    #1 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
    emalc, Sludgeman, mikeburd1128 and 13 others like this.
  2. kevanb

    kevanb Pooh-Bah (2,705) Apr 4, 2011 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I'll drink the beer if it tastes good, but I'll probably grimace at it a few times if it's super turbid. I do prefer to see a clean product, doesn't have to be crystal clear by any means, but just decently presented. Same goes for food as well, I'll eat a big pile of slop of it's going to taste good, but presentation goes a long way.
     
    #2 kevanb, Apr 29, 2015
    mikeburd1128, SouthAtholSuds, cjgiant and 9 others like this.
  3. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Well, I just had a beer that was snow globe ugly with floaties in it. Not hazy per se, or even turbid. Does the word 'turbid" belong to the character of an IPA? (IMO no.) I think that dry hopping leaves behind all these remnants of hops so is it wrong? Maybe not but it does detract from the appearance in a big way. In the case of the beer I had today,I am sure I liked it less because of how it looked. That's about as fair as it gets I suppose. The idea that dry hopping could cause this is equally troublesome because the flavors and aromas from dry hopping fade fast. So, while I enjoyed a flavorful, albeit ugly beer, when you go to have it it could be just ugly and not so flavorful. Then is it a flaw?
     
    #3 utopiajane, Apr 29, 2015
    shadwow13, Geuzedad, cjgiant and 9 others like this.
  4. lakeman

    lakeman Aspirant (293) Jul 13, 2005 Indiana

    I don't think there's anything wrong with brewing hazy beers. The IPA examples you mentioned are hazy mainly because of the particular strain of yeast that those brewers are using. Aside from haze, that yeast also has a major, positive impact on the flavor and aroma of the beer. In my book that is a trade-off that is well worth it. But then again, the visual aspect of beer tasting isn't a big factor for me.
     
    #4 lakeman, Apr 29, 2015
    Stinkypuss and timotao like this.
  5. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Can someone pass me a Kellerbier?
     
    #5 zid, Apr 29, 2015
    Witherby, beerophilia, TongoRad and 5 others like this.
  6. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    So you're saying we need a new style -- India Pale Kellerbier? IPK just doesn't have a great ring to it...:wink:
     
    #6 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
    steveh likes this.
  7. jstilwell

    jstilwell Pundit (835) Oct 21, 2008 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I am not opposed to the haziness and turbidity but I am finding (I believe) that leaving all of this unfiltered residue furthers the need to drink the beers "even sooner" to capture the full flavors. Anyone feel that these type of ipa's, night shift, trillium, fiddlehead are even quicker to "fade" or "Change" ?
     
    #7 jstilwell, Apr 29, 2015
    LJTate, fehrminator, SCW and 1 other person like this.
  8. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    Intrigued by this, as a non-brewer. So you're saying that the yeast strain they use fundamentally prevents them from producing a clear(er) beer?
     
    #8 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
  9. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Thank God.
     
    #9 zid, Apr 29, 2015
    Shroud0fdoom, steveh and breadwinner like this.
  10. Domingo

    Domingo Grand Pooh-Bah (4,252) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah

    Like with most things in the beer world, I suppose it comes down to intent.
     
    #10 Domingo, Apr 29, 2015
    StrappingYoungLad and BalancingBrooms like this.
  11. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Intent, or deadline? :wink:
     
    #11 steveh, Apr 29, 2015
    ONovoMexicano, Domingo and MostlyNorwegian like this.
  12. lakeman

    lakeman Aspirant (293) Jul 13, 2005 Indiana

    Yes. I'm a homebrewer and I have been experimenting with this strain lately. All of the IPAs I brew with it look like belgian wits, but they have an incredible peach/melon flavor and aroma.
     
    #12 lakeman, Apr 29, 2015
    algebeeric_topology, bushycook, horsehockey and 5 others like this.
  13. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    Interesting indeed -- thanks for the field research!
     
    #13 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
  14. DoctorChugButterman

    DoctorChugButterman Initiate (0) Jun 28, 2014 New Hampshire

    It all comes down to taste, doesn't it? It seems like lately the beers that make me say "wow, that's great" are cloudy and in some cases borderline swampy. I don't necessarily want to chew my beer but if it tastes good, screw it. And there's something to be said for the look of it. See below... I haven't tried this one yet, but I want to because it looks like a glass full of sunshine.

    [​IMG]
     
    #14 DoctorChugButterman, Apr 29, 2015
    MA_hops, smutty33, shadwow13 and 15 others like this.
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I knew a dude who once got the last pull (from the hand-pump) off of a dry-hopped cask of pale ale. Bartender offered to replace it for him, but he was thrilled with the pour. Point being: if enough people like it, brewers will continue to supply it. I, personally, think that in all but a handful of "styles" (Hefeweizen, Kellerbier, Wit) it muddles the flavors, making them actually less distinct and recognizable.
     
    #15 herrburgess, Apr 29, 2015
    AugustusRex, bergbrew, UrbanCaveman and 2 others like this.
  16. gopens44

    gopens44 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,560) Aug 9, 2010 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I can admire, ogle or rant in maudlin fashion over a crystal clear IPA with a wonderful light orange hue and stark white foamy head leaving behind perfect lace rings, but at the end of the day, all I truly expect out of an IPA (or any beer for that matter) is a wonderful aroma and at the very least, a taste consistent with my expectations of the style. If the delivery for that taste is a muddled mess, so be it. I enjoy plenty of hefeweizens, so no reason to not allow my indifference to turbidity to remain exclusive to a particular style.
     
    #16 gopens44, Apr 29, 2015
  17. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    A couple others have noted that as well, and I think it's well stated and probably should've been included in the OP. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and, aside from us nerds who want to get in depth about the topic, most folks are just going to drink whatever tastes good to them and rightfully so.
     
    #17 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
  18. breadwinner

    breadwinner Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2014 California

    Forgot to add this question, though -- why is it okay for hefeweizen, kellerbier, and wits to be cloudy? Why are their flavor profiles not muddled by the yeast? If it's okay for them to be hazy, why is it not okay for other styles to be hazy?
     
    #18 breadwinner, Apr 29, 2015
  19. gopens44

    gopens44 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,560) Aug 9, 2010 Virginia
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Interesting observation. Sounds like another opportunity to conduct "research". I'll have to pick up a Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier and Kristalweissbier for a side by side to see to what degree the flavors in the hefe are indeed muddled when compared to it's crystal clear brother
     
    #19 gopens44, Apr 29, 2015
    emalc, WhiteHillsStore, nquigley16 and 6 others like this.
  20. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I like clear beers and and I like very turbid beers, for me it all comes down to how good it tastes. Would a northeast IPA win a BJCP comp? Nope, but that doesn't influence what I like to drink. I still admire a beautifully clear beer at times but would never say no to a delicious hoppy beer from Treehouse, Hill Farmstead, Trillium, Alchemist, etc. because of not being German lager clear.
     
    #20 ChrisMyhre, Apr 29, 2015
    Rockfarmer, meefmoff, Shroud0fdoom and 1 other person like this.
Page 1 of 15
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.