The Definitive Knock-down, Drag-out Cloudy Beer Debate Thread

Yup, straight out of SoCal! The "New England" style has already spread even though Nelson has been brewed longer than most "New England" IPAs!

 

Tom,

According to Martyn Cornell the use of glassware to drink beer in Britain was not popular until the later part of the 1800’s:

“However, in Britain glass remained relatively expensive until the abolition of the glass tax in 1845, which caused an “immense” increase in the production of glass of all kinds. But even after that date, the evidence suggests that glass drinking vessels remained rare in pubs until the end of the Victorian period.”

Note: the end of the Victorian period is around 1900.

https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2015/03/28/more-notes-towards-a-history-of-the-beer-mug/

Michael Jackson wrote:

“By the 1870s, golden lagers had spread from the southeast of Germany to the northwest, where the city of Dortmund, in Westphalia, was developing its own style. The classic Dortmunder lager is firmer bodied and drier, with an alcohol content of around 4.4 percent by weight, 5.5 by volume. Golden lagers began to gain popularity when opaque stoneware steins gave way to mass-produced glass.”

It appears that glassware for lagers become popular in the later part of the 1800’s (e.g., 1870) and glassware for British Beer became popular towards the turn of the century (circa 1900).

Cheers!

 

Are you standing with him or are you in the camp that beer should be clear?

Cheers!

 

This is a very interesting thread. When we first started in 2004, we were the only brewery in NYC to have all of its draft beers (both ales and lagers) flowing through NYC taps unfiltered. You should have seen the look on some people's faces - it was priceless. Trying to convince them to buy a murky or cloudy beer because it was "organically raw" was like trying to convert their religion. The majority of people thought there was seriously something wrong with the beer.

A small cadre of early adopters accepted our artisanal approach and eventually the cloudy beer phenomenon spread throughout the entire region. You actually could walk into a regular bar and get a fresh, unfiltered, cloudy local beer and it was no longer heart-attack inducing. Folks accepted it, and we were happy to help pave the way.

We hit a point in our trajectory a couple of years ago where we realized that it was actually harder to make a beer taste fresh, lively, and organic without the hazy and raw appearance than with it. We used to intentionally leave the beer somewhat raw in both the keg and can, but as a brewer I can tell you its much, much harder to have a beer with a beautiful clear complexion and all of the aroma, texture, and liveliness of a raw and unfiltered beer.

There are many reasons why certain brewers don't filter their beer. Some could filter their beer, but chose not to. Some simply don't have the equipment, so they cannot do it, even if they wanted to. Others might want to skip that step out of laziness or cost savings or time savings, and just package their beers right out of the tank. Some actually don't know how to do it - meaning they don't have the skill set to operate a filtration regime - so they opt to skip that step.

But there are some who know that if they filter their beer, they might lose the flavor, aroma, and appearance characteristics they think is essential to their beer. Creating a beautiful, clear beer with all of the dynamic aroma, texture, feel, and flavor of an unfiltered beer is no joke. There is a reason why most brewers aren't doing it - because it is HARD to pull off!

We are taking a big risk with our JAMMER because we feel that some folks don't want a hazy-style Gose beer. WE BELIEVE some folks out there want a clear beer, but with all of the spice and salt in the aroma, and tanginess in the back end without having a hazy, turbid appearance.

Here are some shots of our new Gose, including a couple of me and our operations manager CRUSHING a couple of cans this afternoon in Brooklyn.

What do you think?

 

Love that photo

 

For the record -- the boys at Alpine have been brewing this hazy yellow/golden gem long before the VT style was born.....

 

My palate leans clearly to the hazy side of this conversation. So much so that I've have a hard time thoroughly enjoying clear beer for a while. The mouthfeel doesnt have what Im looking for these days and in many cases, the aroma certainly doesnt, and they frequently seem thin and one dimensional. I love the creaminess and the olfactory overload..

Obviously, the Sixpoint spokesperson above has first hand knowledge about all this and how hard it is to satisfy both camps. His experience begs the question: Can a beer even be brewed to be clear and still maintain all those characteristics we (some of us) desire? That is, lively, organic, raw with a dynamic texture, aroma and feel. Is it possible to appease those who think beer should only be clear (as a priority) and still appeal to those who want the other big, alive, fresh assaults on the senses?

I'm inclined to say no....all the stuff that makes beer delicious to me also makes it "ugly" to others. I love beer that <glowz>! Once again, it all comes down to personal preferences, doesnt it?

 

This oatmeal is too lumpy
Yeah but it's delicious so shut up and eat it!

 

I'm all about the flavor, aroma, and feel - somehow, good beer always looks good to me

 

Maybe this opinion has been given but I am all about the taste. If a beer is aweosme but looks like shit I'm all in. If a beer looks aweosme and tastes like shit I'm out.

 

Cloudy or clear, as long as it's delicious, it doesn't matter to me.

That said, a nice, clear beer IS a thing of beauty - nice to look at, but by no means a dealbreaker.

 

@Sixpoint , beer looks awesome, will be looking for it up in Boston for sure!

I love all of the "New England/VT style IPAs", and have drunk a fair share of them. The move towards crazy juicy, dank, tropical aromas over a more 'traditional" west coast IPA is interesting, since these new IPAs really do not have much malt character or legitimate bitterness like the "original" IPAs we enjoy -- Sculpin, West Coast IPA, Ruination, etc etc.

 

I prefer the hazy, even turbid ones, the "milkshake beers." I find that they have a rustic, raw, intense minerality, a certain yeastiness, and ridiculous, over-the-top fruit flavor, not to mention usually a very creamy, full mouthfeel. I am hesitant to say the New England/Vermont area started this trend (Alpine Nelson comes to mind), but they certainly brought it to the forefront and made it "acceptable," even desirable to many people, as evidenced by this thread.

I also really enjoy the look of the hazier beers. That full pulp orange juice look just screams juiciness and brightness, and it has a wonderful glow in the right light. I remember saying that Heady Topper was a beautiful beer when seemingly everyone else said it was the ugliest thing around (hipster comments encouraged), and I remember noting it in my review.

All that said, crystal clear beers are a thing of beauty as well. I can appreciate a transparent glass of Sculpin just as much as the hop swamp of Melcher Street.

I don't think either approach is inherently better than the other or better for everyone (though I do think referring to these beers as "not finished" or "not acceptable" is incorrect), but speaking from my own subjective, anecdotal experience, I find the rawness to be more appealing to me. God knows I wish New Glarus would leave their beers as is. Pasteurizing their fruit beers makes me so sad to think what they could be with a little wild yeast and some time in the bottle...

 

I'm a home brewer, and am used to making cloudy beer.

In commercial products, I don't really notice a difference between clear and hazy beers; purely cosmetic in my opinion.

That being said, I could clarify my home brew with some isinglass, but do you really want dried fish bladders in your beer?

 

I guess I got used to looking at opaque beers, from starting out on pitch-black stouts. I don't really care either way- turbid IPAs look beautiful under light, and it's nice to be able to see all the way through the glass to my drinking partner. It would be hard to tell if it has an impact on taste unless someone decides to brew two batches of the same beer concurrently, just one clear and one not.

Well, I have had both clear and hazy PseudoSue. They tasted the same, more or less; if anything, the hazy one seemed a bit "off", but it was almost insignificant. Draw what conclusions you will.

 

Turbid IPA...wonder which brewery will claim this name first???

 

With marketing black pale ales being a thing, anything is possible. I'm at a loss, my only real contribution is that your naturally hazy beer is not turbid, it's this new style called Tubeular Oregon Michigan Hybrid Pilsner. Have a Good Day!

 

I'm actually drawn to hazy beers and always have been. Not sure if it's just some mental game, but I definitely seem to love them.

 

cool man, looking forward to hearing what you think of it!

 

Tired Hands already made a beer called "milkshake"