Spaten Production / Availability Problems?

I dunno, man- if you cleared the shelf of all of the '15s, you're showing some hoarder tendencies

 

I miss Spaten being available in Athens, but it was uncommon. That said, I love their Marzen Oktoberfest. My favorite of the style, though I like Paulaner very well. Beck's has suffered since AB/InBev went to St. Louis production.

 

Cleared -- to drink!
But there was another '15 with the '14s.

 

We had hiccups in Spaten availability but this past few months things are normal again.

 

I had pretty much sworn off HB until some friends and I went to a HB biergarten a couple of weeks ago. We ordered one of each of the HB beers they had (helles, dulkles, hefe). I was surprised with how good they all were. It almost made me think that they've tweaked something over the past 12 months.... Who knows?

 

I don't know if any of those ownership changes resulted in process changes. One thing I am pretty sure of, however, is that they (like the overwhelming majority of Helles brewers) now use a "hoch-kurz" mashing scheme. This technique is widely considered the best way to brew light colored beers and has only been possible for the past couple of decades due to advances in barley breeding and malting improvements. The shift to "hoch-kurz" for light colored beers is one example where saving money and improving quality can go hand in hand.

 

High-Short? Interesting.

I remember hearing about this from Stan Hieronymus a few years back -- he had learned that Spaten had stopped decoction mashing all of their beers except the Dunkel. They claimed the same reasoning you report about barley breeding and malting improvements -- and that "beer drinkers can't tell the difference." It was right about this time that I also noticed the decline in the good, rich melanoidin qualities in many of the Munich Helles beers -- Spaten included.

 

There are Hoch-Kurtz profiles for both step mashes and decoction.

Infusion, bottom of the page.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

Decoction, bottom again.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

 

Great point, "hoch-kurz" doesn't necessarily mean "no decoction". What it does mean is:
-shortening or skipping the protein rest ensures that the amount and type of protein that modern malt comes with won't be broken down too far (thus, hurting mouthfeel and foam as well as raising the risk of infection by having too much FAN in solution)
-higher mash in temps will also skip over the optimum temperature ranges for some unwanted enzymes that oxidize polyphenols and fatty acids (Peroxidasen & Lipoxigenasen)
-shorter overall mash time means less oxygen pickup in general (good for keeping color down and flavor stability high)
- and oh yeah, it means that the brewery can brew more batches per day and use less energy per batch

 

I wasn't exactly sure, I hadn't heard of the H-K process previously, but I had heard Spaten stopped decoction mashes quite a while ago.

 

Did score some Spaten lager today. And didn't have to leave Athens.

 

Jesus, Matt, take a deep breath. First, Spaten Optimator is one of my favorites of its style. I have visited the Spaten Haus but was only lucky enough to do so once many years ago. I am not in any way disparaging the product or the brand. Same goes for Franziskaner. My point was, and many people agree, that being taken over by a corporate giant, the biggest mass producer of beer in the world, presents some risk to the integrity of the product over the long haul. Unlike smaller operations, ABInbev is beholden to their stockholders, period. The stockholders couldn't care less about how the profits are made. One bad year, and the staff of any of ABI's craft operations could be sent packing. Tweaking on recipes to improve profits is a part of the history of brewing. Having worked for a fortune 100 company for almost 30 years, I'm pretty familiar with the m.o.
If you don't believe that the corporate business model is to concentrate more wealth into fewer bank accounts, then you don't understand the corporate business model. Maybe you don't see it in Germany, but it's eroding the middle class in the USA. The pay for Spaten employees is irrelevant; I'm talking about billions of dollars.
ABI has been creating fake/crafty products for years, trying to sell themselves as craft brewers: Amber Bock and Shock Top are just two examples. I never suggested that Spaten has been altered, or that there are cheap imitations being produced.
You've never seen a Spaten ad? "Lass dir raten, trinke Spaten". They've used it for decades. Yes, the craft beer scene is changing, and will be very different in the next 20 years. Whether or not you're a fan of the system, the system is what it is. I just hope and believe that the brewing industry won't end up like the airlines, a few giants with practically all the market share.

 

I should really stop typing things using the exact words and sentence structure that I would if we were sitting at the bar together. Through typing, all contextual nuance is lost.

There are pros and cons to the ways that big breweries operate, just like there are pros and cons to the ways small breweries operate. If you can’t admit that big breweries have a smaller environmental impact (energy use and waste produced), higher employee wages, more rigorous quality control, and lower priced products, then your love for craft beer is blinding your ability to reason. I, on the other hand, see that each type of brewery brings its own strengths to the marketplace… which is awesome.

Next point: Why is it when ABI makes something other than American Lager, it’s called “crafty”. Do you think the guys running the brewhouses at ABI Breweries have less professional training/dedication to the profession than the craft brewer down the street? I’ve never understood this. Somebody can go from being a car salesman to being a brewer in one week in America and he’s automatically a real craft brewer. Yet the guy that has dedicated 10 years of his life to mastering all aspects of brewing is relegated to making only “crafty” beers because he works for too big of a company. That’s pure horseshit, and you know it.

And no, I’ve never seen an ad for Spaten. I know the saying, but it’s always come from someone saying it, not an ad. I’m sure they’ve done their share of advertising over their 618 year history, but I’ve lived in Munich for a year now and have not seen a single bit of Spaten advertising.

I’m not looking to get a big debate going here. I just saw one of my favorite breweries taking some unfair criticism and decided to put in my 2 cents. I’ve got a cold Spaten in the fridge that is calling my name!

 

While I agree with everything you (almost) always say, I'd have to counter with judging the product that comes out of the brewery. A guy dedicating 10 years of his life mastering all aspects of brewing and putting out Budweiser, Miller High Life or Coors is pure horseshit in my opinion. I have more respect for the guys who kickstart their careers with the big guys, but then decide that they want to make something just a little better (maybe a lot better) than macro-swill and strike out on their own -- and there are quite a few of them out there, from Randy Sprecher to Florian Kuplent.

JMO -- not really looking for a debate either. Many years ago I used to say that I'd drink an A-B made beer in a minute if they would brew something as good as Anchor or Sierra Nevada. I recalled that statement as I was drinking a bottle of Goose Island from one of the latest mix 12 packs. It may not be made directly by A-B, but they figured out a way to jump on the bandwagon -- and it's pretty good beer -- just like Spaten. Now, about that flagship...

 

Let's not forget Mitch Steele. He brewed with AB for 14 years before joining Stone Brewing as the head brewer.

I have no doubt that Mitch Steele contributed at AB and learned a lot during those 14 years.

Thank goodness he decided to be part of the Stone Brewing team!!

Cheers to Mitch!!

P.S. I intend no slight to those brewers who work for AB. They are receiving good salaries and are providing for their families.

 

For what it's worth, I picked up some Hofbräu Helles to sample side-by with the Spaten Helles I picked up earlier this.

I poured both beers into the small, clear, home-brew competition type plastic glasses. The 2 beers are damn-near identical, with the HB being the slightest shade deeper gold than the Spaten. Flavor-wise, they're just about identical too, with the Spaten being smoother in mouthfeel and the HB having an edge with bready malt character -- if not being a touch grainier, where the Spaten is lightly sweeter.

All of that in perspective because I have never figured out dating codes on HB beers, so I can't say how much more fresh either is.

Nevertheless, this is a win-win situation for me as both beers are delicious renditions of the style and terrific examples of great beer brewed with a minimum of (outstanding) ingredients, but a wealth of skill.

 

...week -- earlier this week. The edit option seems to be falling short.

 

Hofbrau is pretty weird, indeed, but it goes like this: there's a set of numbers/letters starting with "L", i.e., L 257 N. The 257 is Julian (so our example would be September 14), while the last letter is the year, based on a numerical assignment of the alphabet (i.e., a = (20)01, b = (20)02, and so on until n, which would equal (20)14. Sadly, I see a ton of L xxx N's in my neck of the woods, so I haven't bought bottled HB in a while.

 

You're an algebra teacher, aren't you?

Seriously... I'll look tomorrow to see how the digits on my bottles coincide with your formula.

 

breadwinner, appreciate that.

I just finished a maibock bottled in early February. Not ideal, but to me it tasted pretty damn good and I'm glad I have the rest of the sixer for the weekend.