You're under arrest for counterfit beer.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Smakawhat, Oct 31, 2015.

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  1. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,191) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I don't normally start new threads but this could be an interesting one for discussion I thought.

    I was out on my beer run and waiting in line, and saw that headline on the cover of Wine Spectator. Involving a long set up surveilance and sting and trial of someone who was selling counterfit wines.

    Got me thinking...

    How far down the line are we in terms of people counterfeiting and selling beers illegally that it would eventually take an FBI sting operation involved?

    Seems us beer aficionados are a good but small group, but we all have heard of bad apples.

    There was the Kentucky Brunch Brand Stout thread and counterfiting going on, rumors of Westy 12 as well

    When do you think it's going to be a real problem?
    or is it never going to be a big concern?
    Does the money have to be big enough to get the authorities involved? If so when? Are we getting there anytime soon?
    Is this where beer might be heading as well?

    Curious peoples thoughts.
     
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  2. riverlen

    riverlen Pundit (852) Sep 16, 2009 Illinois

    The values of rare beers doesn't approach the values of rare wine, so there is little payback for the effort. I'm limiting my counterfeiting efforts to wine.
     
  3. surfcaster

    surfcaster Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2013 North Carolina
    Trader

    The wine saga involved multimillion/billionaires and extraordinarily expensive wine--talking the likes of burgundies in the 1000s$ and up range. Folks were dirty all the way from what was thought to be reputable auction houses to sleazy counterfeiters. It kept getting press in some ways because some swindled billionaires (Koch) made it a mission to try to root some of them out. Rudy probably has some new friends and using soap on a rope.

    I just don't see it making its way to beer--at least not in any significant amount.
     
  4. WertMaker

    WertMaker Initiate (0) Jan 17, 2009 Oregon

    What about strong tea in place of 30 year old scotch.....
     
  5. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,191) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Very much agree... what do you think though would it take to get the authorities or perhaps schemers trying to exploit this.

    Beer going for a $1000? $500... $200??
     
  6. Raime

    Raime Pooh-Bah (1,935) Jun 4, 2012 North Korea
    Pooh-Bah

    Nice gift giving idea for the family members you can't stand :wink:
     
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  7. donspublic

    donspublic Grand Pooh-Bah (3,552) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Not sure if it the one you were seeing on the magazine, but there is one around a trader (Hardy Rodenstock) in Europe that had duped people out of a reportedly millions of dollars. I think they could never build up a case against him. Google Jefferson Bottles and you will find some abbreviated stories. There is a whole book about this. Koch (oil not beer dude) and the Forbes family were the major people duped in this.
     
  8. donspublic

    donspublic Grand Pooh-Bah (3,552) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    no upwards of the 50K would be my guess and it would have to be rampant
     
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  9. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,191) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I think I know which one you are referring to, the guy was a big wine head, raving about all the 100 stuff he and his buddies would drink... they found a bunch of fake labels in his desk as well...
     
  10. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I think it does happen already. You can fill and cap a bottle with any beer. I wonder how many people who have gotten their westies from disreputable trades actually had that beer. Since there is no money involved in trading though this would just be a personal lesson. live and learn.
     
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  11. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,191) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Do you think money is the only issue? A slighted brewer? A sudden crackdown from the authorities for some other reason?
     
  12. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Wine has an inbuilt market history of prestige, and desirability among monied suckers and it also has a modicum of pedigree and provenance that goes with it and the infamous terroir factor and also harvest years that make the rarity factor that much more worth the price of taking advantage of people for.
    We're getting there. But first. We good beer sorts need to embrace, and also to exploit the market of the stupid (newly monied) rich with money to blow up front in the marketing of beer, which if people are still complaining about the price point is a long ways away.
    We need an even bigger suckers market then the one that exists currently, and then, there has to be the willingness to invest a lot of capital upfront to take advantage of them.
     
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  13. jRocco2021

    jRocco2021 Savant (1,083) Mar 13, 2010 Wisconsin

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  14. ElmerTLee

    ElmerTLee Initiate (0) Apr 25, 2015 Connecticut

    I have several cases of 'Teady Hopper' if anyones interested.
     
  15. surfcaster

    surfcaster Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2013 North Carolina
    Trader

    As others have noted, there is some degree now on small scale but it would need to be on a much, much bigger scale and just don't see the market for it....yet. Not just beer for 500$ but lots of it. Now when Christies and Sothebys start auctioning beer, well, then beer has reached a new level.
     
  16. ravenwork

    ravenwork Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2015 Pennsylvania

    Wait, this could be hilariously, artistically, FUN! Have you ever heard of the artists who would counterfeit stamps, usually in some comical, creative, or exceptionally colorful way, put them on a letter and see if they would be accepted by the Post Office? What if you did this with a craft beer? Not only could you counterfeit the label, but you could counterfeit the beer too? Then, you could see if it would sell in your local bottle shop? What fun!
     
  17. RLVineh

    RLVineh Zealot (572) Jun 21, 2014 California
    Trader

    i believe i saw a person trade a fraudulent, resealed Assassin not too long ago. If it gets up to wine counterfeiting, i dont know if that will happen.
     
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  18. donspublic

    donspublic Grand Pooh-Bah (3,552) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Well you can engage the authorities at any time for any perceived theft, but to get the FBI involved it has to be some law broken which would require them to get involved, i.e. shipping across state lines, theft by mail(escapes me what this is called). So I guess the question here is for the blatant examples where individuals traded counterfeit bottles of Assassin and others, not really going to be able to get the law involved because these trades fall into somewhat a grey area. But when you have auction houses start auctioning off beer.... I am guessing the only way you would see someone having the law after them is if a distributer pulled some crap and distributed counterfeit product and they were found out. Not a lawyer and reading this, it is quite evident
     
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  19. readyski

    readyski Pooh-Bah (1,557) Jun 4, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    In order -
    never,no,no,no,no,no :grinning:
    English translation -
    not worthwhile for the strumpets to bother
     
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  20. Samlover55

    Samlover55 Pooh-Bah (1,735) Oct 8, 2015 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I think it would be pretty hard to "forge beer". From what i read the wine scammers blend wine to try to make into a certain vintage. For some reason i don't see that working with beer...
     
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