How long until Treehouse is replicated?

In MA sure, but I doubt they'll send anything out of state, besides the random keg to a bar or beer festival. Someone asked JC about why they don't distribute and he said "sometimes bigger is just...bigger". He went on to explain how they wouldn't want to grow to the point where they wouldn't remember why they started in the first place.

 

Brilliant man, I appreciate you throwing that in! That's what I like to hear.

 

I appologize if I over-analyze this, I am a biochemist by trade so it's kind of my job.
But when you consider organic compounds, especially the volatile and relatively complex nature of the chemicals within hops, perhaps the notion that these "juice-bomb" IPAs need to be consumed fresh isn't so crazy.

Keep in mind that there are bucket load of chemicals in hops besides just basic alpha and beta acids, and these chemicals can most certainly have variable "shelf-lives". In my lab, when utilizing some chemicals we have to use crazy precautions ensure they are not subject to degradation. Some of these precautions include storage for long term at -20 to even -80 degrees celcius, and sometimes even that only ensures a 6 month half life of these chemicals. Now obviously you can't ensure that type of storage on beer.

My point ultimately though, is that the specific flavor profile these guys are going for might be reliant upon the preservation or consumption of these chemicals, before degradation. And it may be that these chemicals have a limited stability. Whereas the flavor profile of something like Union Jack may be reliant on chemicals that are more stable, and it is favorable when other "side" chemicals are broken down over time. Thus differences in "peak" consumption times.

Totally shooting in the dark, there's still a lot to learn about hops, and as said I may be over analyzing. Just adding to the conversation.

 

I don't think Treehouse, Trillium, Hoof Hearted, etc will ever be replicated on the national level. Freshness is the key here and like a poster a few times back said, fresh beer at the brewery from the national craft brands can still knock your socks off.

 

I agree with the majority of your post - I'm an engineer in the food/beverage business and we see the same thing as you do with chemicals (mostly flavors) and what brewers see with their beers. What we do here is formulate around it understanding our distribution systems. The easiest example is Vitamin C - we have to deliver 100% of RDA at the end of shelf life, so we over-fortify to achieve that. Oxygen plus heat work against us, plus what migrates through plastic bottles and we hot fill bottles. Part of what my team does here is pack new products in small batches for storage studies at higher temps than the distribution system. This gives the product developers a read on whether the formulation is robust enough to get in consumers' hands as expected. But as the engineering team, we test all sorts of process variables to ensure we are delivering a consistent product to meet consumer expectations. There are a ton of dumb things we can do that negatively impact the shelf life of the product, so we "acid test" the process and the products. Is a small brewery going to do this? Maybe not formally (I cringe every time I see what we budget for this stuff), but I would have to think brewers do "verticles" and compare the products over time somehow.

If a brewer is looking for that super-fresh profile and that is their intent, many people are going to enjoy the beer in that way. That's fine and those particular beers probably would not fare well in wide distribution channels. Somebody said it above - sometimes bigger is just bigger, not better. However, since taste is not objective, some people may not prefer that, which I think is what @JackHorzempa was pointing out. To stick with the IPA whipping boy, I do like some as fresh as I can find them. Some I prefer to let mellow out a little bit - I find some highly hopped beers to be a little jagged and right out of the gate. That's just my personal preference since taste is a subjective thing. Not leaving them sit long enough to become malt-dominant, but just enough to let them calm down a little.

Again - back to the OP. Beer flavor changes with time - I don't think there is any argument about that fact. The question is whether a TreeHouse or Trillium or Brewery XYZ type beer which relies on the "super fresh" hop profile can be ramped up into wider distribution. If the idea is send it everywhere yet retain that right from the brewery flavor experience, I would have to say the answer is logically "no". Those beers should not see bigger distro and be enjoyed locally. Could a beer be formulated to deliver something close to "farm fresh" after distribution - I don't know the answer. Could cans be an equalizer here - I don't know if anyone has studied canned vs. bottled definitively yet. Theoretically, if you fill carefully and do not introduce oxygen, you have an airtight container where oxygen doesn't play as much of a role. Depends whether the flavor changes involve oxygen in the reactions.

There's some research publicly available on hop flavor degradation, but not as much as I thought I would find. I think understanding the reactions and degradation pathways of hop compounds is an area that is just beginning to gain attention from academia.

 

Heady Topper is also best several weeks after delivery. Jon Kimmich says 10 weeks is peak, I have no reason to argue with him based on my experiences with it. That said, there is a strange quality to some HF, Treehouse and Trillium beers. I didn't love my first Congress Street in a growler, drunk that night. It tasted "green" and unfinished. I have since had others, and Treehouse brews and Abner among others that also had a "raw" character and I have come to like it. Not everything is going for that. Heady doesn't. Sip of Sunshine doesn't (or any other Lawson's IPA). Fiddlehead Mastermind does, but Second Fiddle doesn't.

I think it's a mistake to assume that every trendy New England IPA is being made in that raw/green/fresh style. Those that are, I don't think can be scaled up or distributed. Heady Topper and Sip of Sunshine...yeah, those probably could with only minimal losses.

 

I am in the midst of conducting an 'experiment' with the Tired Hands cans that I have in my possession. I obtained the cans on 1/17/16 but I have no way of knowing when they were exactly canned since there is no date on them (my guess is they were canned the week of 1/11/16). So at this point they are likely over 2 weeks old and they are still drinking beautifully. I have had these beers before at the brewery (brewpub) so I am well familiar with them when served at the source.

Cheers!

 

I have had the pleasure of discussing hop chemistry with @LeRose many times in private conversations. As he posted previously: "There's some research publicly available on hop flavor degradation, but not as much as I thought I would find."

What I have read about hop flavor degradation is that hop fade is an oxidation process. Larry already made mention that the principle factors in this aspect is time and temperature along with how much oxygen is introduced at packaging. There may indeed be other chemical processes that have impact here beside oxidation processes but that is just speculation on my part.

In a podcast on Beersmith with Dr. Charlie Bamforth on the topic of Flavor Stability he mentioned that the most important thing that a beer consumer can do to improve the shelf life of beer is to buy a second refrigerator to continually store their beer. This is because cold storage slows down the oxidation processes as per the Arrhenius Equation. Again, in this instance the chemistry of concern is oxidation processes.

@edward_boumil

Cheers!

 

Kimmich is genius.
His evil plans for expansion are soon coming to fruition...and his 10 week peak preference is perfect for combatting old timestamped can distribution hate.
Fresh off the truck is exceptionally better imo, but a 3 month old can is no dummy.

 

As others have said, I think it all comes down to preference. Treehouse is pushing for that super raw, super green flavor from their hops so that is how they sell their beers. FW isn't necessarily aiming for that (nor Alchemist from above comments) and has a beer that works the way THEY want it to.

So, it all depends on what the brewer wants, what the drinker likes, and also how the product is handled. Obviously, the third is the most troublesome as that is not something that can be controlled. Therefore, breweries like TH and Trillium are bypassing that stage (and now Tired Hands as well). As breweries get bigger and move out of state, then this third aspect is brought into the equation and the beer is different in some ways. Therefore, I believe that no, there will not be a regional brewery brewing beers like Treehouse. But, I think we will see more of these hyper local top shelf hop brewers doing their thing in more and more spots around the country. We all will eventually have something that, while maybe not as good as TH or Trill (or dare I say maybe better?), will still be exceptional (many of us already do have that).

All of that being said, I personally prefer these beers to have a couple of weeks or so on them at least to let the flavors meld a bit. On the recommendation of Michael Tonsmeire via a twitter post he made, I tried a Double Dry Hopped Fort Point bottle a month after bottling.... and it was a true piece of art. So subtle in flavor but magnificently balanced.... it was pure perfection. I like it fresh but aged is better. I feel TH Julius with a couple weeks on it is better as well. Heady with a couple weeks is great too (but I really don't like it much after four weeks oddly enough). We all have different tastes and palates so we have to arrange our beer habits in such a way to make it the best experience we can.

 

John Kimmich is certainly one of many exceptionally gifted brewers who have blessed us all with some phenomenal beers and, in turn, kick-off these types of conversations. These my friends are some very good times.

 

Jack, based on what I have read about Heady Topper, there must be some change in tlavor over time in the container. Didnt Mr. Kimmich indicate that himself in a video? I have only ever had one can and it was sixish weeks old. Your experiment should be interesting.

 

That's righteous. Sounds like a dream job to do this sort of science research on beer flavor. Where do I sign up?

 

Larry, Heady Topper is not that much different than the beer you brew or the beers I brew. My homebrewed hoppy beers 'evolve' over time and so does Heady Topper.

In the below video John Kimmich provides his opinions on this topic (starting around 3:48 if you want to 'fast forward').

He comments on:

• Drinking the beer green/raw vs. refined/graceful
• He prefers the beer 3-4 days after canning
• His experience at the pub where it was "best" at 10 weeks in the serving tank

What I have a difficult time understanding is when folks post that if you don't travel to the brewery and wrap your lips around a pipe connected to the serving tank the beer you are drinking is 'bad' and 'old'. Pardon me for the exaggeration but...

Cheers!

 

I am not a scientist; maybe @LeRose can help you here.

Isn't much of scientific research done by writing up a proposal and getting somebody (the government?) sponsoring your research?

Cheers!

 

Yeah I was mostly joking, but if the opportunity ever presented itself I would be down in a heartbeat.

In academic research, yeah you write grants to the relevant department (National Institute of Health for disease research, for instance), and pray that you are one of the 1% of labs that gets funding.

But a lot of people can pull in sponsors from relevant industries if their research will benefit them in some way, so this sort of thing is possible if brewers were interested in learning more about their process.

 

There is a ton of work being done on the front end...varieties, better harvest and agricultural practices. There is a hops research council, USDA, Oregon State U, University of Vermont and more. Where it seems to be lacking is in the finished product, meaning beer. What I have found, the chemistry loks like hell on wheels, but I am no chemist. The impetus probably just isnt there yet, but maybe some doctoral student with an inclination towards brewing science will help change that. Plus I am sure there are more papers written than I can using public resources.

 

Have to agree on this one. Went through a few month period of mediocrity with them but they're mostly back. Case in point: had the Mosaic Fort Point recently and while good, wasn't nearly great (looked about right though). Had the DDH Scaled and was blown away by it. May be personal preference/taste but from what I've known over the past couple years they are learning (I'd argue quickly) how to maintain quality at scale.

 

you haven't had their beer.. that is clear...

 

Haha yeah like Founders and Alpine once were.