NEIPA yeast experiment

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by SFACRKnight, Mar 25, 2016.

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  1. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Many people have been following the NEIPA thread and many people also have theories about what causes the haze. In the name of science and beer I brewed a split batch as part of an experiment into what I feel causes this haze or turbidity in these beers. Many people believe it is hop choice, others point the finger at protein haze, while I believe it is yeast selection. My experiment involves using the same base wort with two different yeast strains utilizing the same dryhop techniques at the same times to determine whether or not yeast has anything to do with this turbid beer style. Once these beers are brewed and carbbed up I will be enlisting other beer fans to help in a triangle taste test to determine if there is a difference between the two finished beers that is perceptible to a drinker. I am hoping for terms like "soft" or "juicy" to show up in the end if everything comes out as expected. But I digress, lets get to the nuts and bolts.
    The recipe was based off previous beers I have brewed that I have enjoyed. From all the speculation, the only part of the grist that is question is the use of flaked grains. While I have included wheat malt, I have had clear beers utilizing flaked oats and dryhop additions with high oil content cultivars (read citra). I excluded flaked grains at this point to keep the number of factors low. The final recipe is as follows:
    OG 1.058
    IBU 38
    SRM 6.7
    11 gallon batch
    20lb great western pale ale malt 83.3%
    3lb us munich 12.5%
    1lb white wheat malt 4.2%
    1 oz Columbus @ 60min
    .5oz centennial @ 15 min
    .5oz citra @ 15min
    1oz Amarillo @ 0 min
    2.5oz centennial @ 0 min
    1.5 oz citra @ 0 min
    10 drops fermcap at beginning of boil.
    Water treated with Camden tablets the evening before brew day
    I resisted using kettle finings to keep yet another variable out of the equation.
    Both yeasts were pitched into 1500ml 1.032 gravity starters 4 days before brew day.
    [​IMG]
    The brew day netted a clear wort that achieved a clarity I have NEVER achieved before. The only anomaly I encountered was I had to top the kettle off with water from the HLT to keep my gravity low. The kettle was almost overflowing and I hit higher than expected efficiency during my sparge. The wort was dropped to 60 degrees before it was divided up into separate fermenters. I also opted to add to each fermenter one gallon at a time, staggering them back and forth so I didn't get more trub in the second fermenter.
    After pitching both slurries and setting temps to 67 degrees I let the yeast do their thing. 1318 aggressively started fermentation within 4 hours while 1056 took an hour or two longer to kick off. 1318 blew karusen off into my airlock while 1056 chugged away with no issues.
    Day 3 I pulled both fermenters up into a spare room to finish up around 70 degrees. While the 1056 is in a fermenter I cannot look into, the 1318 is in a clear fermenter. I am at day 5 and the beer is murky. While krausen has dropped a bit, and airlock activity is over, it is turbid. Dry hop additions have not been chosen yet, but I will have them ready to go for day 7 where I will add my first round of dryhops. The beers will receive a second addition at day 9 and I plan to bottle on day 14.
    [​IMG]
    Clear picture of 1318 fermenter and obvious haze or turbidity...
     
  2. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Nice experiment. I plan to do something similar. The next IPA I brew will be the same as the NEIPA (w/ Wy1318) I brewed 6 months ago (and is still cloudy), but this time I'll use Wy1217 (West Coast IPA). All else I'll keep the same (as much as possible). Cheers!
     
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  3. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I had brewed using 1318 at the end of last summer with my homegrown hops, I found some bottles last weekend while organizing my basement. Out of curiosity I popped the tops on a few and most had dropped clear for the most part and had alot of sediment in the bottles.
     
  4. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Dryhops have been decided. 2oz citra 1oz columbus in each day 7. 3oz citra in each day 9. Should be enough oils to do what it do.
     
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  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    More than enough IMO.

    Cheers!
     
  6. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    While I agree its almost overkill, the lhbs had lbs of citra for the price of 8 oz. So I went big...
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    From an 'experiment' perspective it may be prudent to go 'big' here. In this way you mitigate comments from folks who might be motivated to opine: your results are 'inaccurate' because you did not use enough hops.

    While I am 'here' I am always vexed by the amount of dry hops that some homebrewers use for homebrewing. The amounts that I see just seem absolutely insane to me. Yesterday I added 1.5 ounces of Centennial hops to a Centennial IPA (which I have brewed many, many times before). I suspect that a large number of BA homebrewers think that I am absolutely insane for using such a 'minuscule' amount of hops for dry hopping from their perspective. A very 'interesting' BA homebrewing world we all live it!?!:astonished:

    Cheers!
     
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  8. cmurphycode

    cmurphycode Initiate (0) Oct 3, 2010 Massachusetts

    Not overkill at all.

    Trillium's IPA Congress St uses ~8 oz dry hop per 5 gallons (~6 galaxy, 2 columbus). And that's just the regular (not DDH)!

    My Trillium Fort Point (pale ale) clone (from BYO) had a 5 oz dry hop (4 citra, 1 columbus).
     
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  9. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    typically I don't do more than 4 oz in my dryhopping schedules with larger beers. Some of my apa's don't even get a dryhop addition... :grimacing:
     
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  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    There is a challenge in 'converting' commercial beer recipes to homebrewing scale. For example, the commercial breweries are fermenting in BIG conical fermenters and when they dry hop over a period of time (a few days) much of the hops will settle to the bottom and there will be a large amount of hydrostatic pressure and spent yeast on the hops at the bottom of the larger vertical conical tanks. This is why some commercial brewers will perform a mutli-dry hop schedule: dry hops with x amount of hops for 3-4 days and then dry hop again with y amount of dry hops. I ferment in a 7.9 gallon plastic bucket which has a very different aspect ratio then an x barrel conical tank and needless to say there is minimal hydrostatic pressure from 5 gallons of beer. To think that we homebrewers need to dry hop at the same ratios as commercial breweries is a stretch. I recognize why people mimic these additions verbatum (i.e., dry hop with x ounces of hops per barrel) but this is not absolutely required on the homebrewing scale. Understanding the scale aspects is prudent here.

    Cheers!
     
  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Bells ferments beers like Two Hearted in special fermenters that have a shallow cone angle 5 or 10 degrees, which allows the hops more area exposed to the beer. Scroll down to March 17 post for a video of tank installation, you can see the cone.
    https://www.facebook.com/BellsBreweryInc/?ref=ts&fref=ts
     
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  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Very cool. Do you by any chance know their dry-hopping rate for two hearted?
     
  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    The Zymurgy article had 3.5 oz. for 5 gallons. David said they scaled down the recipe from the production brewery.

    These are 22 lb bags, hard to count how many per fermenter.
     
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  14. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    I think Cl:SO4 ratio has a good deal of significance with the "soft" mouthfeel as well, for what it's worth... maybe for a follow up experiment.
     
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  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Jeff,

    You are correct that the Zymurgy article lists 3.5 ounces for dry hopping for Bell’s Two Hearted (see below).

    When I homebrew my IPAs I also make an end of boil (and 40 minute hop-stand) to add aroma. The Zymurgy recipe has no end of boil hop addition.

    Cheers!




    For 5 gallons (19 L)

    10 lb (4.5 kg) | Briess Two-row Brewers Malt (1.8°L)

    2.83 lb (1.3 kg) | Briess Pale Malt (3.5°L)

    8.0 oz (227 g) | Briess Caramel (40°L)

    1.2 oz (34 g) | Centennial pellets, 9.1% a.a. (45 min)

    1.2 oz (34 g) | Centennial pellets, 9.1% a.a. (30 min)

    3.5 oz (99 g) | Centennial pellets, 9.1% a.a. (dry hop)

    White Labs WLP001 California Ale Yeast or WLP California Ale V Yeast
     
  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    There are a lot of ways to get to similar results. I don't know if Bells does whirlpool additions for any of their beers.
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I 100% agree.
    Based upon the Zymurgy provided recipe it appears that they do not perform whirlpool hopping?

    Cheers!
     
  18. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    My water profile is super soft, I have it posted somewhere around these forums. Again, I wanted to keep things simple for now as far as variables go. Once I get this exbeeriment finished and have consumed or shared the ten gallons of apa, I will be revisiting things like water adjustments, flaked grains in the grist, and hop selection. I am going really heavy on citra this time, but next round will involve other hops. I was thinking southern hemisphere, however I had a beer from a local brewery that really knocked it out of the park using northwest hops.
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/32514/209984/?ba=SFACRKnight

    EDIT: while this go round utilized some munich, I think pale ale malt with wheat or oats may be my go to for these hazy IPAs.
     
  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Not for Two Hearted. They do have whirlpools, they have several hoppy beers, do they whirlpool any?
     
  20. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    First dryhop addition of 1 oz columbus and 2 oz citra was pitched into each fermenter today. Both beers still have a krausen, the 1318 is about an inch to two inches in depth and very thick and rocky. 1056 is about half an inch at best and looks like it is a creamy and silky smooth krausen. Maybe these pellets will knock it down a bit...
     
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