Cold Crashing

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by OldBrewer, May 31, 2016.

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  1. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Cold crashing ales after fermentation has completed helps flocculate the yeast, and allows the beer to clear better before bottling/kegging.

    However, cold crashing lagers is a different story. Many sources recommend dropping the temperature of a lager after the diacetyl rest, by about 1 degree C (2 degrees F) per day, until lagering temperature has been reached (generallly around 32 F). Assuming that the diacetyl rest is at about 58-60 F, that means it takes about two weeks before the lager even reaches lagering temperature! The theory is that you want the yeast to still be a little active during the lagering phase, and you want to avoid shocking the yeast. Dropping the temperature too rapidly causes the yeast to throw off esters.

    Two weeks just to reach the lagering temperature seems excessive considering that you then have to lager for an additional 3 or 4 weeks. I was wondering if this theory of dropping the temperature of a lager by 1 degree C (2 degrees F) until lagering temperature has been reached is still valid? Wouldn't it be possible to say, drop the temperature to about 40 F and then cold crash it? How long after the diacetyl rest does the yeast actually have to keep working?

    I'm wondering what experiences, practices and advice others might have?
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If you have done a D-Rest and you are sure fermentation is complete, you can crash it. The notion of keeping the yeast active during lagering is IMO a throwback to the days when lagering was begun for final gravity had been reached.
     
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “Some brewing texts recommend slowly reducing the temperature by no more than 5 °F (3 °C) per day until the temperature is at the desired setting for lagering. However, many homebrewers ignore this advice and achieve excellent results. There is agreement that in order to achieve the maximum effect the lagering needs to be done cold, with the temperature no more than 40 °F (5 °C). Many commercial breweries lager at nearly freezing temperatures, in the 32–34 °F (0–1 °C) range.”

    http://byo.com/stories/item/1488-the-lowdown-on-lagering-advanced-brewing

    I am one of those homebrewers who ignore the advice of a slow cooling process and I achieve excellent results.

    Cheers!
     
  4. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    The only problem is that the fermentation is not necessarily complete at the end of the diacetyl rest. It is still active during the rest, and a couple of days of rest would not seem enough for the yeast to finish fermenting and cleaning up.
     
  5. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks, Jack. I have always done it the long way, lowering the temperature by a couple of degrees per day until it reaches lagering temperature. I've been considering dropping the temperature slowly after the rest until it reaches the initial fermentation temperature (about 48 F), let it sit a couple of days, rack it into a keg, and then cold crashing it to lagering temperature. That should give the yeast plenty of time to clean up.

    Do you cold crash immediately after the diacetyl rest?
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    That would depend on when you start the D-rest. I start them when fermentation is almost finished. Having said that, it couldn't hurt to taste the beer before you cold crash it.
     
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  7. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    I usually do mine when it's about 2/3 - 3/4 way to FG. With the higher temperature, it gets to FG quite fast, so that soon after I begin to drop the temperature, the fermentation is more or less done. But then I wonder about this 'cleaning up" that the yeast is supposed to do after fermentation is complete. However, I'm not sure if it's as necessary with lagers as with ales.
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The cleanup processes don't wait for fermentation to be complete before they start.
     
  9. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    No, but don't they continue for a while after fermentation?
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, but I suspect not for as long as you might be thinking. I've always been able to crash my lagers after a 2-3 day diacetyl rest begun when there are a few points of attenuation to go.
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    John, I have brewed over 75 batches of lagers using a variety of different lager yeasts (about 10 different varieties) and I have never conducted a diacetyl rest. I am very sensitive to diacetyl and none of my lagers had perceptible levels of diacetyl.

    When primary fermentation is complete I take the beer down to lagering temperatures (e.g., less than 40 degrees F) over a timeframe of 24-48 hours.

    Based upon my personal discussions with Kai Troester and reading his blog I am of the opinion that there is indeed yeast activity during the lagering process which is part and parcel of the overall lagering phase.

    From Kai’s blog:

    “When the beer is conditioned at low temperatures various processes take place that lead to the smooth character which is expected from a lager:

    • Proteins and polyphenols (tannins) form agglomerations (basically bind with each other to form larger molecules) which become insoluble and precipitate out of solution. [Nguyen 2007]
    • Hop polyphenols will drop out leading to milder hop bitterness
    • Yeast sediment which cleans up the beer and removes the yeasty smell and taste associated with young beer
    • Some of the alcohols and acids form esters in the beer which leads to new flavor compounds. This process is very slow and becomes only significant after more than 12 weeks [Narziss 2005].
    • Some yeast activity may be present which leads to further clean-up and extract reduction of the beer. I oftentimes see another extract drop of 0.1 - 0.2 Plato over the course of a few weeks.”
    http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers#lagering.2Fcold_conditioning

    Cheers!
     
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  12. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Excellent information, Jack, exactly what I was looking for. The question remains as to how long after primary fermentation should one allow the yeast to clean up, in order for any beneficial effects to take place. In your process, you allow 2-3 days. Is that enough?
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    John, all of the lagers I have brewed have been of moderate gravity (e.g., 1.050-ish) and all visible signs of fermentaton are complete at around the 10 day mark. My practice is to not transfer to the secondary (which is a carboy for me) no sooner than 14 days of primary. I do not have a specific time duration for "yeast clean up". I simply let the primary go for a minimum of 14 days and then lager for about 5-6 weeks. This process 'works' in my homebrewery.

    The four lagers I brewed this year (as per the above) are: CAP, Tmavý Ležák, 1896 Michelob and Bohemian Pilsner.

    Cheers!
     
  14. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    Thanks Jack. I also don't transfer to a secondary (except for special circumstances), and leave the beer on the yeast for a minimum of three weeks as a standard rule (both ales and lagers). I'm beginning to think that, as long as you leave your beer on the yeast long enough, a diacetyl rest and a slow lowering of temperature may not be necessary.

    I also brewed the Bohemian Pilsner this year and am greatly enjoying it, although it still can use another couple of weeks of lagering.
     
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Narziss advocates for a very strict schedule of slow temperature drops, based on the following criteria and/or desired results:
    • achievement of final attenuation
    • natural carbonation
    • sensory maturation of flavor compounds
    • clarification
    • improvement of head retention
    • excretion of unstable protein compounds
    • improvement of colloidal stability due to the low temperatures
    Maybe as a homebrewer you are not necessarily concerned with such (best) practices in these areas. But if you maintain equally long lagering times, I fail to see what benefits severe cold crashing might have vs dropping temps slowly. I believe @honkey mentioned that he avoided such cold crashing as it negatively affected his yeast. Perhaps he can chime in here as well.
     
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  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

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  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't see what slow temperature drop (as opposed to crashing) has to do with most of those desired results, except for the first two. The first one, achievement of final attenuation, is easy to overcome...just don't cold crash before attenuation is finished...I don't think anyone who crashes advocates doing it before it's done. I suppose the natural carbonation one means that the continued fermentation (of incompletely attenuated) wort/beer as it is cooling slowly will produce carbonation. Okay, but how many people want to do that, and what would be the advantage? The rest IMO are functions of lagering and not functions of the cooling rate per se.
     
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  18. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Well, Narziss's approach does imply secondary fermentation (often in a different vessel), so there's that. And, sure, all of those things can be achieved during primary and at higher temperatures. But to achieve optimal results (according to Narziss), final attenuation should be a longer process, lest the remaining extract be consumed too quickly. He even provides charts to show at what temperatures the remaining percentage of extract is optimally consumed. As for the advantages of natural CO2, in my opinion CO2 that is produced and retained naturally has a softer feel and less of a carbonic bite than forced (also forced carbonation is believed to scrub SO2). But that's a whole different point/debate (that the prevailing US literature similarly sees as moot).
     
    #18 herrburgess, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
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  19. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes. Just providing the viewpoint of the most respected professor of lager brewing over the last century. OP is, of course, free to follow advice of US bloggers instead if he wishes.
     
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  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    You know, while I always recommend tasting the beer before transfers to keg and cold crashing, I have been burned a few times, where I didn't taste diacetyl only to taste it in the kegged beer. While I believe cold crashing is great when a beer is finished, I am second guessing exactly how to tell that it is finished.
     
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