German craft beer

Um..... there is a difference between saying all of them have a similar characteristic and complaining about a lack of overall quality.

 

Exactly. Also, most if not all of those comments are tongue-in-cheek replies to statements Stone has made in its own marketing. I personally have bought and consumed (in full) many Stone beers in the past and have great respect for their brewing skills.

 

This is always a useful read for those who feel they've been misunderstood.

http://archive.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70179

Especially since it deals only with electronic communication by the written word only.

 

I definitely find it understandable that some of the things said ITT could be taken at least somewhat offensive - particularly given that are definitely trends in this scene where people become (at least in my opinion) a bit overly skeptical of breweries once they reach a certain size.
Not to mention that there are still more than a few people who - in hyperbolic terms - think the U.S. is the devil with its "cultural and economic imperialism".

Then there's the general skepticism regarding the "craft beer movement" here and whatnot and so forth and there is admittedly and unfortunately currently this "hipster tendency" to it.

But as others have already noted - I see no issue why there needs to be a clashing of both. Both can and do exist in the same sphere and will probably continue to do so. I personally embrace Stone opening up operations here, for a few reasons. First and foremost: It's good beer at a reasonable price. Second: Cans. Seriously? Why do cans in Germany have this conntation of being "cheap"? And third: With the many environmental issues we have to deal with this day and age - I like that a brewery with that size is trying to be environmentally responsible.

Edit: As for variety - I think for Stone's lineup it'll likely come with time. In general? If I want a good Pils, Weizen or Schwarzbier I know where to find one.

 

I agree with you 100% especially in relation to the highlighted line, I do think though that it is a feature of some breweries (including stone) marketing schtick to constantly bash and belittle other breweries and other styles of beer, its kind of their whole thing to set up an us against them situation and I personally really dislike it

 

That's exactly the thing, at least for me, which caused some negativity in this thread in particular.
NOT the quality of the beers themselves, which I think no one can argue with.
I was actually in love with Ruination 1.0.
It's more the marketing and attitude towards certain aspects of beer culture which off course upsets people who like and value and regard germany's native traditional beer cultures highly.

As gravinbrooksbank implied, it's not about people here being sceptical towards Stone beers and their quality. It's just the narrative that most classic german brews are boring, uninteresting and flavourless and only beers with shitloads of hops are worth their salt, even going so far as to say big, high abv. hop bombs used to be the "norm" for german Pilsner..

I WANT to live in a world were I can have a Augustiner Märzen (Salzburg) or Augustiner Hell (Munich) AND an arrogant bastard Ale, and appreciate them both for what they are.

Is that a crazy thought?

 

Absolutely not. That's totally my point. I want to live in a world we can have both without useless bickering between brewers or the scene

I honestly haven't yet seen anything that would indicate that Stone thinks classic German brews are uninteresting (and having German, both old and new breweries in their tap lineup would not hint towards that) aside from the Pilsner claim - which I'm also skeptical of although I wouldn't call anything at 50 IBU and <8 % a "high abv hop bomb". Now it would be time for those who have worked in the industry, have seen the beer decline etc. to speak - I remember reading something along these lines elsewhere but I don't remember in detail.


And from what I've seen regarding marketing it looked more like they were targeting the big brewing conglomerates - who have de facto been delivering a watered down product in addition to shady business practices.

 

Fair enough. For the record however, I have never bashed a brewery by name. I speak out against the industrialization, homogenization and cheapening of beer. I speak for diversity, quality and character...for authenticity, passion and the art of brewing.

The latter I do pretty much constantly, and reference Stone as being just a small part of this world. The former, I only do from time to time.

The only style of beer that I have ever bashed is one that is brewed intentionally to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Since I don't mention brands, it's up to the individual to decide for themselves what this means.

At any rate, it's an interesting world we live in. I'm just trying to be a part of the movement to make it more interesting, rather than less. Cheers!

 

A year or two back I found a paper that outlined a study on the IBU decline in German beer styles, and I bookmarked it. Today however, it's inaccessible. Here's the link. Perhaps someone smarter than me can figure out how to access it?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...zm&s=7f7579c1f090ac9b0c45a2b8fa6be72de9c46151

 

From Stan Hieronymus. Link in his article goes behind a paywall. I don't feel like paying.
http://appellationbeer.com/blog/whither-the-german-pilsner/

 

This article is bollocks because from my pont of view, it is not clear what the sample is- what beers were analyzed?
And even IF they took a big variety and a huge data sample for their analysis- still, that breweries like Krombacher or Warsteiner or other big boys reduced their bitterness levels is fairly obvious, isn't it?
But look at highly regarded bavarian breweries which have a Pils and a Helles in their portfolio.
To this day, Gamoertbräu Försterpils and St. Georgenbräu Pilsner are way hoppier than their Helles counterparts...... and I bet in 10-20 years, this won't change. And those failry hoppy, aromatic, and damn tasty Pilsners are still nowhere near 5.8% abv or 50 IBUs.

 

Only if you don't finish....

Prosit!

 

I will see if I can find the paper...I posted it somewhere in the forums. What the paper clearly showed was that a total of 2 pilsners over the past few decades had recorded IBUs in excess of 50. It took very little effort to determine which beers these were: Waldhaus and Vogel. Two breweries (one being a tiny brewpub started in the 1980s) who explicitly pride themselves on bucking trends and amping up their beers. Again, to in any way imply that these 2 outliers represent some sort of traditional past "norm" is to grossly misunderstand the history of German pilsner.

As to why this myth still exists among so many, I have no idea. I can only surmise it persists because some people want it to...

 

Greg, there are papers in technical journals which documented the bitterness levels of German brewed Pilsners in the past (a span of 3-4 decades ago).

I have hardcopy of the following articles:

· D.W. Lachenmeier, S. Triiebel and E. Lerch. “Bitterness Unts in beer: retrospective trends and current concept of commerce,” Monatsschrift für Brauwissenschafft November/December 2006, 1-2.

· Dr. Rudolf Thalacker, “Zur Verkehrsauffassung über die Bittereinheiten von Pilsbier.” Brauwelt NR 31-32 (2007), 848-851.

· Dr. Dirk W. Lachenmeier, “Allgenmeine Verkehrsauffassung über Bittereinheiten von Pilsbier,” Brauwelt NR 46-47 (2006), 1446-1448.

I also have hardcopy of a database used to support the research of one of the above papers.

It seems to be ‘popular’ to point out the number of Pilsner beers where the IBU value exceeds 50 but IMO that does paint a completer picture. It is useful to consider the number of Pilsners which exceeded the value of 45 (or 40) IBUs and this number is much greater than two beer brands. The facts clearly indicate that German breweries produced a significant number of Pilsner beers with high(er) values of IBU just a few decades ago.

Cheers!

 

Maybe you are thinking about the posts of BA felsenpils?

“Dear fellow beer advocates:

I studied under Professor Doktor Narziss when I was in the brewmaster program at the Technichal University of Munich at the Weihenstephan campus. I also had the honor of acting as his translator when he met with the late, great beer hunter Michael Jackson years ago. This man is the world´s foremost expert in the field of brewing science. He wrote all of the text books which we used at the University and he taught there for years. If there is a beer god, he is it. I have been present at symposiums in Germany where many of the country´s top brewmasters, brewing engineers and Doctors of Brewing Science are present. When Professor Doktor Narziss enters the room, everyone stands and applauds for minutes and trust me on this, Germans rarely show this type of behavior. His depth of understanding of every aspect of beer and brewing is the result of a lifetime of research in the field. He and Belgian Jean De Clerck are the very pioneers of modern brewing science and they were also close colleagues. Former students of his can be found in breweries all around the world and each will tell you as I am telling you, what Sigmund Freud was to psychology, Professor Doktor Narziss is to brewing. Even Michael Jackson had a lot of fear and anxiety before meeting him, a sentiment which he confided to me. Fortunately, the Professor is a kind man and actually treated Mr. Jackson as a colleague, not just a journalist. The criticism of the state of German brewing is well founded and needs to be addressed. The beers have indeed been dumbed down and are being produced as cheaply as possible within the constraints of the Reinheitsgebot. It is similar to what happened in the US after Prohibition and World War II. What the Professor was trying to say is that we (his students) know how to make the highest quality beer and that by intentionally not doing so, we are doing a disservice to our craft and to his legacy. And that is resounding loudly within the German brewing industry.”

Cheers!

 

I believe there were a maximum of 4-5 that ever consistently exceeded such levels [40 IBUs], with the number exceeding 45 being even lower. Will find the paper -- yet again -- illustrating these facts...though it probably wont do any good in dispelling the myth that you continue to perpetuate.

 

Nah, it was a lot of historical talk between quite a few users here.

As for these papers, it seems kinda hard to assess something that (at least as it would seem) we don't really have access to.

 

Simply stating the facts.