The 750 Saison

Dupont Posca Rustica

Continuing on the theme, this beer is listed here as a "Scottish gruit / ancient herbed ale." Rather than taking the "Scottish gruit" idea literally, this category seems to be the place to put beers that reference the pre-hop method of beer making. There's text on the bottle that tells the story of a 63 A.D. Roman soldier stationed near present-day Belgium. The soldier wants posca - a sour wine drink. He gets "Posca Rustica," the local brewed version favored by the local tribes. It's a blond, herbal, non-sour carbonated beverage/ale. Here's a Wikipedia quote about posca:

"Posca was a popular drink in ancient Rome and Greece, made by mixing sour wine or vinegar with water and flavouring herbs. It originated in Greece as a medicinal mixture but became an everyday drink for the Roman army and the lower classes from around the 2nd century BC, continuing to be used throughout Roman history and into the Byzantine period. It was not usually drunk by the upper classes and was associated with the peasants. It was made by reusing wine spoiled by faulty storage and had important dietary advantages. As well as being a source of liquid, it provided calories and was an antiscorbutic, helping to prevent scurvy by providing vitamin C. Its acidity killed harmful bacteria and the flavouring helped to overcome the bad taste of local water supplies.

Posca was increasingly heavily used by the Roman army during the Republican period when it became a standard beverage for soldiers. The drinking of quality wine was considered a sign of indiscipline, to the point that some generals banned imported vintage wine altogether. Appian records both posca and wine as being among the provisions of the army of Lucullus in his Spanish campaign of 153 BC. It had evidently become part of the customary rations by the 1st century AD; the Christian Gospels describe Roman soldiers offering Jesus sour wine on a sponge [2] during the Crucifixion. The Historia Augusta records that by Hadrian's time sour wine was a standard part of the normal "camp fare" (cibus castrensis). A decree of 360 AD instructed the lower ranks of the army to drink posca and wine on alternate days.

Although it was primarily associated with soldiers and the lower classes, some higher-ranked Romans also drank posca to express solidarity with their troops. According to Plutarch, Cato the Elder was particularly noted for liking posca. Girolamo Cardano, in his Encomium Neronis, Basel (1562), attributed the superiority of the Roman armies to only three factors: the great quantities of levies, their sturdiness and ability to carry heavy weights due to training, and good foods such as salted pork, cheese and the use of posca as a drink."


This Dupont beer originated in 1983 and was originally brewed as a historic beverage for a historic site/museum near Dupont.

I believe this beer actually uses some hops, but I can't find the source that led me to believe this. Once again, this bottle is three years old. There's hardly a head. The Dupont house character is evident. The spices are unidentifiable in the beer upon tasting it, but they add a little bit of mystery to the beer. I've read that it uses sweet woodruff and bog myrtle. It's rich, smooth, juicy, and sweet. If this beer was released by Dupont without the backstory and hint of ingredients, I wouldn't be surprised if the beer was listed here as a saison. A very nice beer.

 

Dupont Monk's Stout

Continuing along the edges of the Dupont family, this beer is probably seen as the furthest thing from a saison that they brew.

I once stumbled upon this beer on tap and I thought I hit the jackpot. I was eager to try this beer when the server brought it out to me. It tasted like something went terribly wrong with it. Undrinkable. I decided to buy a bottle of it at some future date to give it another try. Finding this one year old bottle, I felt like I hit the jackpot once again considering that the last three Dupont beers in this thread were three years old.

The beer in this bottle was waaayy better than the beer in the keg that I had in the past. The ABV of this beer is 5.2%, but the body of this beer feels light for the ABV. The beer comes across as more delicate than the average stout. It's roasty. It's not sweet. There's some tartness lurking in the back. It goes down really easy and it's even quite subtle. It's unusual, and very nice, but not totally compelling.

There's a very interesting line on the bottle: "Monk's Stout captures the intense Dupont style in a dark beer." This quote makes me think that the brewery sees this beer as more "Dupont-ish" than the English Stout classification on this site might suggest.

This beer was originally brewed in 1950 and it returned in 2010 thanks to the extra capacity at Dupont and their desire to look into their own history. I have no idea why it's called "Monk's Stout" - wish I knew.

The ubiquitous nature of porters/stouts really testifies to the global importance of that beer style. As far as brewing beers that nod to non-Belgian styles, Dupont also brews a pilsner... and while Dupont doesn't brew a "Scotch ale," Belgians seem to have a particular fondness for brewing (and drinking) them.

@JackHorzempa , perhaps you remember us discussing this beer a while back when the topic of a saison/stout hybrid was brought up? This all goes back to the point I was making about Bons Voeux. If an American views the Dupont house yeast as a "saison yeast," and if this yeast is used to make this beer, then one could view this beer as a saison/stout hybrid. If Dupont has the point of view that all their beers are made with their "house yeast"... including their saison and their stout, then their perspective would be different. This is all just speculation done for the mental exercise.

 

I don't know how well Monk's Stout can relate to an American "black saison." Maybe better than I think. When I drank it, I was thinking more "unusual stout" than 'black saison" but it's a little silly of me to make the distinction, and frankly, I'm more thoughtful after drinking than while drinking. I don't know what Dupont was aiming for with this beer other than reviving an old recipe. If an American brewer tried making a black saison, they might have a very different target outcome in mind. Hope you get to try this one.

 

Perennial Regalia

I'm back to a few more American saisons. Thought I'd give a shot to another Perennial beer. This one has wheat, spelt and brett in the mix. The brett is bringing some serious pineapple that's immediately apparent in the aroma when the bottle opens. The fruit here is intense. I think this bottle is about a year old, and I never had it fresh, so I don't know if this became amplified with age. This beer is 8.5% ABV and the alcohol level is just too high for the beer. The alcohol and the brett together become such a heavy handed combo. This beer is a victim of "too much."

 

Good to know. Thank goodness for different impressions and preferences. The two Perennial's I had in this thread just didn't land all too well with me. I think you posted about Perennial Meriwether here. Is Regalia your favorite Perennial saison/Belgian pale? Besides Regalia, I've tried Meriwether, Owen, Hommel Bier, Aria, Stefon, and Saison De Lis. Hommel Bier might have been my favorite of the bunch.

Regarding spelt, I think that means that my hunch was right about recommending Blaugies D'Epeautre to you. You must try this one if you can find it with the current label. Only a store with a wide selection is likely to have it.

 

Holy Mountain Witchfinder

When I posted about this brewery previously, I mentioned that they were named after metal band Sleep's album... and the assumption is that Sleep named their album after the movie of the same name. In this case, the name of the beer, Witchfinder, is named after the heavy metal band Witchfinder General... and that band took their name from the movie WItchfinder General. So... this is a beer named after a band named after a movie, by a brewery named after an album named after a movie. It's funny how things work out. Vincent Price fans should check out Witchfinder General.

The beer Witchfinder is made with pilsner malt and wheat, and is refermented in the bottle with brett. This is a really nice beer. Just like Regalia before it, there's that brett pineapple aroma immediately upon opening, but where Regalia didn't work for me, Witchfinder shines. The ABV of my bottle (6.1%) is higher than the listing on this site (5.5%). It's dry. It's a little rough but it's a layered beer. There's a nice bitterness that isn't apparent at first but it creeps up and makes itself noticed. The carbonation is a little too prickly for me. It's too bad that price and availability issues prevent this beer from being one to revisit over and over again.

 

Brooklyn Local 1

So, this beer is classified as a "Belgian Strong Pale Ale" here. Brooklyn calls it a "Belgian-inspired Strong Golden Ale"... which is saying the same thing. It's made with German pilsner malt and both Belgian yeast and Champagne yeast. Hops are Aurora, Perle, and Styrian Golding. ABV is 9%.

The malt is very rich in this beer. The alcohol is very apparent. The beer is "100% bottle re-fermented" and the carbonation is quite low. The beer is strong and fruity. Taken as a whole, there is a lot of personality in this beer. I didn't used to think that this beer was so heavy. Within the context of all of the saisons, it's possible that the differences make this beer seem very big and lacking in drinkability (two feelings that I might not attach to this beer in other circumstances).

Within the context of this thread, this beer does not feel like a saison at all... BUT, if it was labeled a "saison" by the brewer, would I accept that and unconsciously give it much more latitude? Maybe.

 

Alright. I've done another blind tasting, this time with the three beers above and two "revisits" - CBC Morning Dew and The Bruery Jardinier. I did not include the various Dupont beers I posted about recently. I don't have a pic of the bottle lineup or the ball jars. Here's how I ranked them:

5 - Brooklyn Local 1
4 - Perennial Regalia
3 - The Bruery Jardinier
2 - Holy Mountain Witchfinder
1 - CBC Morning Dew

No surprises here for me. This order basically reflects how much I enjoyed them when I first opened them up. It was almost a toss-up between the top two though.

 

I don't see it differently from you.

 

I'm gonna expand on that previous post and explain a bit about claiming that:

I think that our reactions to beers are very influenced by forces outside the beer. Beer styles work hand in hand with the power of suggestion. It's also in my nature to try to wonder if style divisions fall apart if approached differently. When I drink Brooklyn Local 1, the brewer doesn't call it a saison and I don't think of it as a saison when I drink it. If someone handed me a glass of Brooklyn Local 1 and told me that it was a Fantome beer, would I think of it as a saison? Would I unfairly think that it was a "bad" saison? Maybe. I just wonder these things as I try to poke holes in what I think are truths. I can say that I've never been as unhappy drinking Local 1 as I was in the context of this thread (I used to really enjoy it). Maybe that's from me force fitting the beer into a different set of expectations. Maybe the bottle was just older than what I've had before. Maybe my tastes have changed regardless of the thread. I know it's unfair to judge it according to standards that it wasn't aiming for. It makes much more sense to compare it to Duvel, but the main aim of the thread is to see how these different beers play against each other.

 

There was a thread here a bit ago titled:
Grizette vs Patersbier vs Table Saison vs Belgian Pale Ale

This 750 thread was referenced and I posted in the thread above. I thought it made sense to include some of my gibberish from that thread here (it keeps things in one place). Here's that gibberish copied and pasted:

First disclaimer - I'm not a historian or a brewer or even very intelligent. I'm just a drinker who gets interested in this stuff. If someone wants to say that I'm not on target I'd welcome it.
Second disclaimer - I tend to view beer styles as very very fuzzy things. I also think it's a mistake to view various beer styles as a collective that works in unison. In other words, if some Belgians decided to name some beers Enkels, it doesn't mean that this was done to distinguish them from saisons (I'm not implying that they are the same).

I view grisette as being an offshoot from the saison tree (both in the historical sense and in the "craft beer" sense). To me, grisette feels more specific than saison (which is a ludicrous idea since we know little specifics). In other words, if I drank any modern beer labeled a grisette, and I was told that it was a saison, I wouldn't think anything odd. On the other hand, if I drank a random modern saison, and I was told it was a grisette, there's a decent chance I'd raise my eyebrow. However, I do believe that this will certainly change as American brewers begin to brew more and more beers that they'll add the grisette tag to. I am starting to see more beers with this tag, and as a result, more variation. Common features would be relatively low ABV, very light in color, not acidic, not spiced, use of wheat, noticeable hop presence. I have had one sour "grisette." Keep in mind that the word grisette might be used as a signal to a buyer regarding beer expectations, but it can also be used for simple trendiness or to help them stand out.

Saison ABV was indeed lower going back. The Vandervelde Act resulted in Belgian brewers making stronger beer in the 20th century. In the last half century, specialty brewers (like saison brewers) also found their modern audience by making specialty product. In the 19th century, the average ABV of Belgian beer was reportedly just 3%. 4% was considered strong. Table beers were far below that. If those numbers are correct, then most of today's "table beer" would be the equivalent of strong beer back then. Personally, I never use the term "table saison" (for no real reason). It just communicates a saison on the low end of the ABV spectrum (by today's standards). I was curious if Dupont actually called Avril a saison (as opposed to a "table beer"), so I just went to their website... but unless I missed it, it's not currently listed as one of their beers on their site.

Regarding Patersbier. I'm very interested in Patersbier and Enkel. I was under the impression that Enkel=Single and Patersbier=Father's Beer, but @kojevergas said that this was incorrect in this post. I would really like to read his thoughts on this and Patersbier and Enkel in general. Whenever I bring up these beer names, it's always just crickets. I'd love it if he can add to this. I was also under the impression that a Patersbier was usually an Enkel, but not necessarily so. That might explain St Bernardus and Corsendonk's use of the word "Pater," but that might be something unconnected.

As far as "Belgian Pale Ales"... the timing of this thread is funny because I just talked about this in my saison thread. I don't view this as a style at all. You can read my thoughts here. Warning - I'm just as long-winded in that post too.

So are there fundamental differences between all of these types of beer? Since I mentioned that my point of view leans towards fuzziness, I really can't say. Others might claim that the differences are A, B and C... and that's a fine perspective too. (As an inconsistent human, sometimes I'm one of those people .)

I tend to view a beer as part of the environment that it exists in. That might sound so obvious that it seems dumb. It's actually the flip from how beer is often viewed on this site... where people view a beer by dissecting it according to their senses. We zoom in rather than zoom out. Belgian beer often comes with romantic stories that we can cling to as consumers. A grisette was for miners. A saison was for farmhands. A Patersbier was for monks. A table beer was for the household. While these ideas are somewhat irrelevant today (the grisettes coming out of Oregon are bought by young men with disposable income ), the ideas still manage to somehow create some synergy with the drinker and the beer. In other words, even if the beers were brewed in New York and they all go into my belly, I'm fine with the idea that the difference between a Patersbier and a grisette is that one references tired miners and the other tired monks.

[...]

I think I might know what @kojevergas was referring to in the post I linked to. "Enkel" roughly translates to "only" or "just." If I'm right, an Enkel is literally a name for a beer that would only be available at the abbey. Then this would be a name for a beer based on it's relation to its environment rather than specific sensory characteristics. The same would be true for a "Patersbier." It just so happens that a lighter beer is a good fit for this role. Going through the beers that kinda-sorta fit this definition (some better than others), here are some that I am familiar with (I haven't tried the two Achel beers or Petite Orval, but I've tried the rest):

Chimay has Doree (aka Gold, aka "Speciale De Poteaupré"). It's more or less a 4.8% Belgian Wit, and this shows the flexibility in the designation. It's now available in bottles in the US, but this is a relatively new development.

Achel has smaller versions of both their blond and their bruin. Both called 5 rather than 8 (as a reference to the ABVs). Only available at the abbey.

Orval has their small version of Orval - which is a style unto itself. Called Petite Orval (I think Orval Green is the same thing). It's 3.5% Only available at the abbey.

La Trappe has Puur, a 4.7% blond which I am guessing was never a patersbier but it might qualify as a misfit. Available outside the abbey.

Westmalle has Extra, a subtle 4.8% blond. Not to be confused with Achel's Extras which are bigger than their normal beers. I think there is limited availability of this outside the abbey.

Westvleteren has a 5.8 blond that's bottled. A bigger beer than the others here, and possessing big personality too. Only available at the abbey.

St Bernardus isn't Trappist of course, but it's worth including them. Their Extra 4 was one of the recipes that came from Westvleteren. St Bernardus calls this beer a "Single" and "Enkel." It's a 4.8% blond.