The 750 Saison

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by zid, Jun 26, 2016.

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  1. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    So when is a saison a farmhouse beer… or when is a farmhouse beer a saison? Brewers and drinkers might use the terms interchangeably. This site puts them in the same style listing, but that doesn’t mean that they are one and the same. At the beginning of Phil Markowsky’s book, he says that the term “farmhouse ale” denotes two style groups - saison and bier de garde. I don’t know where the term originates from. By many’s definition of ales vs lagers, “farmhouse ales” is already inappropriate just for using the term ale. In Michael Jackson’s Beer Companion, he doesn’t link saison and bier de garde, but he does mention “farmhouse breweries” when describing bier de garde.

    In an online article about farmhouse ales, Phil Markowski states that, “Today, outstanding versions of farmhouse ale are not and need not be brewed on a farm.” Taking a look at the beer aisle in the store (and ignoring the “outstanding” part), it is clearly the case that brewing location is not a prerequisite for calling a beer a saison, bier de garde, or even a farmhouse ale.

    I find it absurd when someone uses their own definition for any of the style terms, but I’m a hypocrite and often guilty of the same. Personally, I think of saison and bier de garde as beer styles (however loose), and farmhouse ales as beers that are brewed on a farmhouse. See, I’m such a hypocrite that I don’t even think of farmhouse ales in the same way as the man who wrote the book on them.

    Today, people are using the term farmhouse ale to describe traditional beer brewed on a farmhouse outside of the France/Belgium mold. Here’s a recent article from BeerAdvocate magazine on breweries in Estonia.

    The last beer in the thread, Jester King Simple Means, is called a farmhouse Altbier by the brewer… not because it’s a saison, but because it’s brewed at a farmhouse. I’m OK with this. Having said that, whenever I see Long Trail’s Farmhouse Collection variety pack, I always expect to see saisons in it, but it actually has IPAs, Viennas, Berliners, etc. There are packaged “saisons” that don’t have the word saison on the bottle, but use the term farmhouse ale instead. The muddiness does get confusing.

    There’s clearly no such thing as right or wrong here and it’s a fool’s game to completely think otherwise. Nonetheless, I’m left scratching my head when I see someone claim that the differences between saisons and farmhouse ales have to do with ABV, attenuation, “funk” level, malt bill, etc. What are they basing this on?

    Here’s a blog post with an interesting perspective. The author feels that the equipment and certain techniques are defining factors. Here’s a quote:

    There’s also a notion that farmer/brewers used whatever they would have had at hand on the farm… whatever grains, herbs, etc were in season and available. Personally, I feel that this romantic notion (however accurate) has become a ball and chain to saison brewing rather than the other way around. Some modern brewers seem to feel that they have the freedom to put whatever they want to in their saison due to this. It’s a tiresome escape clause that’s diluting the style in my eyes.

    All of that brings me to this beer:

    [​IMG]

    Plan Bee Pickle

    This isn’t a saison, but I think of it as a farmhouse ale. I can easily imagine the brewers agreeing. They don't call it a saison, so my comment above about diluting the style doesn't apply. I think they call their beers "barn beer" style or something like that. Evan and Emily Watson are the owners of Plan Bee in Poughkeepsie NY. They brew beer on their farm. Their plan is to make their beer from only NY State ingredients… and as much from their own farm as possible. This includes malt, hops… even the oak used for aging and the soap used for cleaning. Plan Bee is a NY “farm brewery,” which means that at least 20% of their ingredients are grown in NY… and this gives them the ability to sell their beer at farmers’ markets. Plan Bee is going for 100% sourcing rather than 20.

    The fruits, vegetables, and herbs that they use are grown on their farm. Since their beers are tied to their agriculture, their beers are seasonal by necessity rather than a self-imposed limitation.

    The yeast that Evan uses for his beer is extracted from the honey that comes from their bee hives on their farm. He feels that honey is the ideal source for obtaining terroir. He could cultivate yeast from the fruits grown on their farm, but the yeast from the honey reflects everything within a three mile radius.

    This particular beer is called pickle because it tastes like one. It has the flavors of dill, cucumber/pickle, and oak. I’m not a fan of beers that emulate other foods and this is no exception even though it’s both unique and a quality product. It encourages sipping rather than drinking. When I was a child, my parents were very serious about their vegetable garden. They would often give me a pickle jar that had nothing left but the pickle juice and order me to go to the garden and “collect” Japanese beetles. Unfortunately, drinking this beer just makes me feel like I’m sipping from the beetle death trap. Insect guilt is a powerful thing, but Plan Bee’s work is certainly admirable.

    [​IMG]

    Plan Bee photo courtesy of @M-Fox24
     
    #501 zid, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
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  2. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Beautiful! =)
     
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Chris (@zid), you are correct that there is no universally accepted definition for the term Farmhouse Ales.

    FWIW, I like to view the topic of Farmhouse Ales akin to how Phil Markowski defines it but with one more subcategory of Grisette. While it is true that historically the Grisette was typically produced in an industrial manner (i.e., by a commercial brewery) the Grisette style is very similar to a Saison so I lump it in with the other subcategory beers of Farmhouse Ales.

    Cheers!
     
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  4. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I know that it is a strong hoppy beer that isn't an IPA because it has a mouthfeel that is different from an IPA by way of a tart sour quality, lots of esters from yeast and phenols or spice, PLUS sugar which increases dryness and and actual bubbly or champagne like carbonation. You can use wheat and honey not just sugar but the really good ones are hoppy. The very hop forward middle of the iPA is different from every other beer. The saison is not necessarily very high in abv and has a nice crisp finish that says "sweet" but tastes dry.
     
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  5. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    [​IMG]

    Smuttynose Smistletoe

    As I slowly bring this thread to a halt, this is a nice beer to include. It's a Christmas beer, and although I've included the French tradition of a "Biere de Noel," I intend to transition out of these "Farmhouse Ales" as the winter season approaches.

    Smuttynose calls this a biere de garde. The bottle/packing is absolutely terrific this year. The name of this beer is also fantastic. It is brewed with cherries, plums, and currants. It is aged on oak.

    I was sort of expecting this beer to be like a strong dark Belgian ale rather than a biere de garde. This is probably due to the Christmas theme and the fruit additions. This beer isn't like that at all. The beer is a gorgeous light red. Rather than being very malty, it's quite the opposite. The malt is wispy and barely there. I don't notice any oak, but I bet the aging was critical regardless. The cherries and currants are front and center. It's a little tart and very fruity. I would guess that there were cranberries in the mix rather than plums. Carbonation is a little prickly. Hops are working very well as a balancing ingredient. I think this beer would work very well in a festive atmosphere or with a holiday meal. It's restrained and characterful - which is a great combination. A great beer.
     
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  6. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    I forgot to mention that Smistletoe is brewed with saison yeast. In my mind, it's not a biere garde, it's not to a style.
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Chris, I regularly homebrew using cranberries and they do indeed provide tartness but the fruit flavors are very subtle for my palate. I personally would never associate the words "very fruity" with cranberries.

    Cheers!

    @LeRose
     
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  8. LeRose

    LeRose Grand Pooh-Bah (4,423) Nov 24, 2011 Massachusetts
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    We could go on a while about cranberry flavor, eh? But it is true...they really aren't very "fruity". Better characterized as acidic, slightly bitter, and phenolic astringency and spiciness. It us almost more of a feel than a real flavor...just not a ton of identifiable aromatics. In your CBPA beer, Jack, it is definitely present but it is very subtle. We often refer to the flavor as generic red berry. The raw juice is pretty potent, but it blends into the background amazingly well. If you use too much, it can dominate, but in blended products it can be a good team player. The closest thing I have had to true fresh-pressed cranberry flavor in a beer was Jack's Abby Cranberry Berliner which was finished in barrels full of cranberries. The raw juice tastes quite different than the juice cocktail. A good flavor reference is straight cran juce from Trader Joe's or Knudsen or Whole Foods.

    @zid I have worked 35 years in the cranberry business, so happy to jump (or be drawn) into any discussions about cranberries.
     
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  9. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,102) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    I couldn't agree more, so thank you for putting my thoughts into words better than I ever could. To me, a "farmhouse" ale describes the location where it was brewed (in a farmhouse brewery). It is not a standalone style. I'm sorry, but if you're brewing Bière de Garde in a former warehouse facility in Brooklyn, NY you're not brewing farmhouse ale. You're brewing a farmhouse-style ale.

    Beer descriptors certainly do get confusing. Not to pick on Schlafly, because I like a lot of their beers, but let's use their Farmhouse IPA as an example. Here are the full stats from their website:
    HOPS: Chinook, Centennial, Mosiac
    GRAINS: Europils, White Wheat, Cara 8
    YEAST: French Saison
    SRM: 6
    ABV: 7.2%
    IBU: 40

    Based on the stats and the ingredients this beer seems like it has way more in common with a high-strength Saison than an IPA. Sure, the hops are slightly on the high side for a Saison (BJCP lists the IBU range at 20-35) but not by much. The malt bill looks acceptable for a Saison. The biggest difference is the type of hops used, not the amount. Regardless, they've decided to slap both the "Farmhouse" and "IPA" tags on this beer, purely for marketing reasons I'm guessing. To me, this beer is a Saison. I'm more okay with the farmhouse altbier that's actually brewed in a farmhouse brewery than the farmhouse IPA that is neither.
     
  10. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I posted my reactions to that Schlafly beer on New Beer Sunday a while ago. I think you'll agree with some of what I wrote:

    That beer is classified here as an "American IPA" which is not a good fit in my mind. If you read the BeerAdvocate description of the "Belgian IPA," it's a much better fit: "Various malts are used, but the beers of the style are finished with Belgian yeast strains (bottle-conditioned) and the hops employed tend to be American." I obviously think saison is a better fit over American IPA too.
     
  11. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Your cranberry homebrew is legendary around here, but I think you're misinterpreting me. There are no cranberries in the beer, but I was saying that if someone handed me the beer blindly, I would guess that they were within the mix... and that plums were not. I got some cranberry flavor, but cherry was louder. By saying it was fruity, I was commenting on the beer as a whole, not a cranberry flavor specifically, but cranberries are fruits, so it's also my fault for using such a non-specific term. This is an appropriate time of the year for this conversation. :slight_smile:

    @LeRose
     
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  12. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,102) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    Wow, that's too funny. I'd say we definitely share the same view of that beer. :grinning: Good call on the Belgian IPA. I didn't think of that before but it definitely needs to be taken into consideration given its ingredients.
     
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  13. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    I prefer Hoppy Saison , myself . There are definitely some similarities between these beers and Belgian IPAs, but I find the Hoppy Saisons much more preferable . I find that they are not as loud (to steal a zid-ism), and the dryness makes for a much more pleasant drink overall . It's almost like the Belgian IPA was the practice round that led to the improved final product :slight_smile:.
     
  14. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,102) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    Saisons are obviously very open to interpretation but they still need to follow a few guidelines, and the dryness you mentioned is one of them. I agree it's one of the things that makes them so enjoyable to drink. They should also have an element of spice and effervescence to them, among other things. To me, it's a style that's totally driven by the yeast. The other ingredients can vary but in my opinion once you add a Saison yeast strain in there, that's what makes it a Saison.
     
  15. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,102) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    And right on cue I get this is my email inbox tonight from Sixpoint:
    Seems like @Sixpoint gets it when it comes to "farmhouse-style" ales. :sunglasses:
     
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  16. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    "zid-ism," now I'm getting scared. :slight_smile:

    I've never been a fan of the term "Belgian IPA." It doesn't help that it's usually used as a tag for a hoppy Belgian beer or an American take on a super hopped up wit.
     
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  17. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I was just driving up to relatives for the holiday and I stopped the car so my wife could buy a drink. She asked if I wanted anything and I said to buy me something fruity. She came back to the car with an iced tea for me. Disappointed, I said that I asked for something fruity... and she responded that there was lemon in the iced tea. :rolling_eyes: It's very funny how life works out. What goes around comes around.

    Cheers Jack and happy Thanksgiving!

    ( @utopiajane , thought you might enjoy the wife story too)
     
  18. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    Now that I think about it , 'American' seems to be the moniker for hoppy, so I wouldn't be surprised if these were to be known as American Saisons if they aren't already .
     
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  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Chris,

    I was up on Long Island celebrating Thanksgiving at my wife's cousin's place. I drank a couple of Cranberry Belgian Pale Ales and I thought of you.

    Cheers!
     
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  20. cjgiant

    cjgiant Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,584) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Society Pooh-Bah

    To put these two thoughts together...

    There are quite a few "farm breweries" in VA, as well. They make all sorts of styles, including the ubiquitous stouts and IPAs (amongst others). I don't think any of those beers should be considered farmhouse ales (which I think we basically all seem to agree on), and to all of their credit, none of them are trying to (to my knowledge).

    Of course, then you have the current thread's multi-represented Blackberry Farms in Tennessee that "follows the rule" - truly for lack of a more nuanced explanation.

    To my palate, there does tend to be a fairly unique interaction with many Belgian yeasts and the hops (I'm guessing more often American hops in the beers I have had) that makes the style (Belgian Pale Ale at least) fairly unique. Is a different style necessary? Not a debate I want to have - because my palate probably isn't a good differentiator for a style :wink:.
     
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