Massive headspace in secondary

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by thebriansmaude, Dec 16, 2016.

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  1. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Greetings fellow beer nerds:

    We brewed up a 5 gal batch of what is supposed to churn out a 7.3 ABV IPA. OG 1.076 - FG 1.019.

    Our problem begins when we mistakenly dumped ALL of our kettle contents (including hot/cold break) directly into our primary with no decanting or straining or effort whatsoever to prevent it from getting into the primary. Shortly after we researched ourselves into a panic convinced that the all the hot break from our boil would jeopardize our beer. In retrospect I'm not even sure this was a legitimate concern, but alas.

    After 5 days of primary, our airlock had settled down from near boiling to a bubble once every 2 min and we decided to rack to secondary to separate the beer from our excessive trub as early as possible without interrupting primary fermentation. We took a gravity, and our beer was 0.003 lower than predicted FG. I thought this was odd after just 5 days in primary...

    We racked directly into a carboy we figured was exactly 5 gallons in volume. Wrong. Amateur hour. It was six gallons. Now were looking at a beer that is done primary fermentation, essentially releasing no CO2, chillin with about a gallon of gaseous, earthen air. Bad right!?

    Question: FG has long been surpassed, do we just say the hell with dry hopping, lets bottle before that O2 rots our beer and condition in the bottle?

    OR do we press on, bravely conditioning our beer in this over sized secondary risking what is already tasting like an excellent IPA?

    -Long winded
     
  2. scottakelly

    scottakelly Maven (1,487) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    I would just skip the dry hopping and bottle immediately.
     
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  3. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    It's funny to see this post after another brewer had similar concerns about racking quickly to secondary and worrying about bubbles from his airlock.

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/no-activity-after-transfer-to-secondary.472185/


    The salty veterans of this forum will tell you to slow down and to not worry about airlock activity. Go by your gravity readings. Always. You shouldn't have fermentation in your secondary unless you are adding more sugar to your beer. Maybe Fruit. Maybe if you're trying to add an additional strain of yeast. Hmm. Not that you can't do this with a secondary. You just shouldn't without a good reason.

    I'd dry hop for 4 or 5 days and bottle your beer. It won't be as bad as you think. :slight_smile:
     
  4. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    +1 for dry hopping. Beer will be fine.

    @inchrisin perhaps you mean malty veterans , not salty???lol
     
  5. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Thank you to the salty/malty vets for your input.

    It sounds like because we have reached our FG, we should leave the beer in secondary for just enough time to dry hop, not for the two or so weeks we had planned for conditioning, and just bottle condition for longer?

    Can the oxidation we fear happen in 4-5 days though?
     
  6. DunkelFester

    DunkelFester Zealot (607) Aug 24, 2004 Pennsylvania

    For all but the biggest of beers and/or lagers fermenting at low temps, 5 days is usually plenty of time for primary *if* you're pitching lots of healthy yeast. The whole '1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, 3 weeks in bottles' rule of thumb is really just that. It's a handy way for rookies to remember and it's conservative enough that even if you aren't taking hydrometer readings (which you *should*, no question) before racking, you'll likely still have finished beer w/ a pretty low risk of bottle bombs.

    For lower gravity beers, primary may wind down in as little as 72 hrs - so a week can be overkill.


    If you planned to dry hop, go for it.

    This probably depends at least as much on how well you racked it (minimal splashing, etc) as it does with the air in the headspace. Also, there's at least some info out there suggesting that dry hopping for as little as 24 hours is effective and perhaps even preferable to longer contact times, so - if you're really concerned? Dry hop for a day or 2 and then bottle.
     
  7. kcq101

    kcq101 Initiate (0) Nov 10, 2007 Pennsylvania

    +1 on dry hopping for 1-2 days and bottling (after you are confident that final gravity has been achieved).

    Regardless of the extra trub, I believe that you could have been better off skipping the secondary on an IPA (even with an OG of 1.076). The beer may have benefited from more contact time with the yeast during the dry hop. And there is always the inherent risk of infection and introduction of O2 when racking.

    However, all considered, if everything else with the recipe and process was in good shape, I wouldn't sweat the extra headspace for an extra day or two.

    Let us know how it turns out!
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Every homebrewer gets to decide how much trub is permitted into the primary. I am of the opinion that having trub in the primary is no big deal.

    For your consideration: http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

    Cheers!
     
  9. Jake_Ramrod

    Jake_Ramrod Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2013 Kentucky

    Keep in mind that you could have kept it in primary even with the trub, then dry hopped, and simply cold crashed to drop the hops/trub out of suspension.
     
  10. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Big thanks to everyone for their input ! We will go ahead with the dry hop but cut it to 48 hours. In future, we wont worry so much about trub contact and keep our IPA's in primary, and if we do rack, it will be into an appropriate sized carboy...

    The sample we thiefed tasted great, I will let everyone know how the finished product compares. Thanks!
     
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  11. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    1-gallon of headspace is perfectly fine. In fact, almost every 5-5.5 gallon batch I've ever done has been in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy or bucket. Never had oxidation/flavor issues. I should also add that there have been plenty of beers in secondary fermenters with that much headspace as well. Just do what the others say – dry hop 2-3 days before bottling, and don't tamper with it until then!
     
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  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    A 1 gallon headspace for a secondary is not a best practice. Ideally for a 5 gallon batch of beer you want a 5 gallon secondary vessel (e.g., carboy, corny keg,..) so there is no headspace. The presence of 1 gallon of air (which is 20% O2) is not a good idea.

    Cheers!

    P.S. Having a large headspace during primary is OK.
     
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  13. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    Works fine for me!
     
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  14. DunkelFester

    DunkelFester Zealot (607) Aug 24, 2004 Pennsylvania

    There's what 'works' and what's 'ideal'. Practice vs. theory. Your beer is good after secondary with a gallon of headspace, therefore it works. Would it be 'better than good' w/ no headspace & all else equal? Theory says yes. But is there a perceptible difference? The only way to know the answer is to split 10 gallons into 2 different carboys (one 6 gal and one 5 gal), then do a blind tasting when it's all done. Or, better... do a blind tasting soon after packaging, and another 3 or 6 months later.

    Or skip all of that, and just keep doing what works. :sunglasses:
     
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Joe, that could be the key aspect here.

    If a homebrewer consumes their beer quickly then the effects of increased oxidation may not be noticed.

    Regardless of this timing aspect it is not a best practice to expose finished beer to any more air (oxygen) then is necessary.

    Cheers!
     
  16. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes
    And a little. Don't worry about it this time and try not to do it again.

    I don't drink IPAs until they're about 7 or 8 weeks old. They're always packaged by the third week. They sit in the bottle or the keg until they round out a little.
     
  17. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    Fair enough - I shouldn't lead the OP on with saying that 1-1.5 gal of headspace is 'best practice'. Less headspace is certainly ideal, just letting him know not to worry. It will 'work' but won't be the greatest beer ever made. In his case, an IPA would certainly suffer more than let's say a scotch ale would with a large amount of head space.
     
  18. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    A follow up to the 'Massive headspace IPA'

    It has been 7 weeks since we bottled and 7.5 weeks since we brewed the beer in question - i'd like to post a bunch of details that should resolve any questions for a novice homebrewer (like me) that has run into the exact problems that we have had above - hopefully.

    Recap:

    1. All trub went into fermenter, like ALL trub - as the aeration method was dump from spigotless kettle into bucket, back to kettle, back to fermenter, and back, and back, and all in. Fantastic aeration, BUT, panic ensued when we began a WebMD style google search to find out that nasty hot and cold break were rampant in what we dumped into our fermenter, and it was waiting to destroy our 70 dollar (Canadian, relax) beer ingredient investment. This is a DIPA Extract brew...

    2. We decided to rack to secondary once we hit our predicted final gravity to separate the beer from the trub - only after four days of fermentation in primary, better get it off that thick cold break laden trub right?

    3. Beer racked after four days, predicted FG in extract recipe hit, let's rack. Racked. Oh wait , shite, our glass carboy has like 2 gallons of fresh air sitting on our beer. Now we've really done it!

    4. BA homebrew forum post goes live

    5. We decide to rack out of O2 rampant secondary after 48 hours of dry hoping ~3oz in a hop bag, in to bottles.

    6. Wait.

    Results:

    1. All that hot and cold break protein and skuzz is what we freaked out over initially. Shouldn't have done that. Although it wasn't ideal for our beer, the alternative was worse.

    2. Early racking to secondary lead to the massive headspace. shouldn't have racked.

    3. Primary fermentation was probably only partially done, with no diacetyl rest, and i don't believe we fully attenuated this beer to it's potential.

    4. 2 days of dry hopping was not enough. This is largely because a hop bag was used, and the hop particles did not circulate through the beer like they should have for maximum aromatic contact.



    Taste: This 80 IBU 1.080 og IPA ended up tasting like a 'Lagunitas Brown Suggah" with some serious bitterness, but almost no hop aroma. Drinkable, but not a DIPA of quaff-able character like we hoped.

    Moral: whatever you f-up on brew day, its probably not worth doing an emergency rack to secondary

    Dry hopping for 48 hours in a bag is probably not even worth it.Cant say about naked dump.

    Bottle conditioning can not replace bulk conditioning in primary. At least for this beer. But probably all beers. Be patient, wait, it's not that bad, and may the force be with you.

    Anyway, crusty vets, say "Ya i coulda told ya all that".

    Rookie brewers: " Ahhhhhhh okay"
     
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  19. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Forgot to mention, RE: Oxidation - I don't think this beer was oxidized from its time in the carboy with headspace, but I don't think we will really know that for sure for a while...
     
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  20. ssam

    ssam Pundit (997) Dec 2, 2008 California

    I don't think a diacetyl rest is common practice for a DIPA. Did you have diacetyl in your final product?
     
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