Beer Server and Off Flavor Training

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Giovannilucano, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Good day!!

    It has been awhile since making an original thread!

    I have been back in NJ for 4 months and have really seen the South Jersey breweries growing.

    In Wyoming I have worked on a brewery training business model and did train 5 breweries.

    I am curious to hear thoughts on how I can implore other breweries to see the benefits of beer server and off flavor training, and see if I can continue with this passion of teaching!!

    Thank you in advance!!!
     
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  2. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Welcome back to the area.

    I suspect the fundamental problem with breweries being receptive to training of servers is related to two things. The first is they don't understand that the server can make a difference in the customer experience. The second is a potentially high turnover rate in the folks employed as servers.

    Seems to me like you'll need some sort of persuasive presentation to the brewers that training can make a difference before those who don't already agree are convinced it may be impacting their bottom line to a greater extent than the costs of training and improved working conditions for servers.
     
  3. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Thank you!
    Very solid thoughts!!

    One example that I witnessed recently at a brewery was how the server filled the growlers. It was...hmmm the worst thing I have ever seen...

    Thank you for your input as it makes me learn more myself!
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Giovanni, how frequently have you seen growlers filled properly?

    I personally only purchase growler fills at local brewpubs that have Gruner Growler Filling stations which perform a dual CO2 evacuation followed by a counter-pressure fill.

    What would be you personal definition/description of a proper growler fill?

    Cheers!
     
  5. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    At the risk of sounding cynical, I'd say that a good many brewers would benefit from the training as well. Even before it gets to the server level.

    The Brewers Association has programs available, but they will do no good if the breweries don't avail themselves of them.
     
  6. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Hey, Jack!

    Thankfully I have seen plenty of growler fills, and I really have learned a lot about growler fills from my friend( who worked for a Wy brewery).

    So far all of the breweries I trained and visited only did growler fills the old fashion way.

    My personal description? Try not to pour the whole keg on the floor while filling a growler lol
     
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  7. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Thank you so much!!

    The way that I see it, is training, and especially off flavor training, it bridges the communication between customer,server and brewer which to me is quite important. Knowing what DMS tastes like it can help the brewer make changes and prevent it.
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    If a bar or brewery was to fill a growler from a regular old tap would you teach them:
    • To use a piece of plastic tubing to perform a bottoms up fill vs. a splashing down the jug fill?
    • If you advocate using a plastic tube how should that tube be maintained between growler fills?
    • Where should the server's hands be when applying/using the plastic tube?
    • What type of cap should be used once the growler fill is complete? A simple metal cap or a plastic cap with a rubber crown sealer?
    There is likely several other questions I should be posing to you but I am forgetting at the moment.

    Cheers!
     
    #8 JackHorzempa, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  9. nesarebad

    nesarebad Pooh-Bah (1,868) Feb 4, 2012 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    As I always like to say, "the Gruner gets the gold!"
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Michael, have you read the Brewers Association:

    “Best Practices Guide to Quality Craft Beer

    Delivering Optimal Flavor to the Consumer”

    https://www.brewersassociation.org/attachments/0001/3980/EDP_Quality.pdf

    If so, have you taken note of:

    “Storage temperature can also affect beer staling. Lagers aged at 25° C tended to develop caramel characteristics. The same beers aged at 30-37° C developed cardboard-like notes. So once packaged, beer can really suffer from heat, especially if long shelf times are expected. Time and temperature play together (with any residual oxygen or other oxidizing agents that might be naturally present in beer) to cause flavor deterioration. Lower temperatures for shipping and warehouse storage will preserve beer quality; beers tested at 4° C (39° F ) were shown to have a shelf life of 112 days. This was reduced to only 28 days when tested at just 20° C (68° F). Warmer conditions increase the rate of many chemical reactions including oxidation reactions which might involve oxygen directly or other oxidants such as mineral ions.”

    And:

    Warehousing (Cellars or Coolers) – Ideally, packaged beer should reach the customer as fast as possible. However, due to the impossibility of matching packaging runs and shipping times to the consumers’ demands, it is often necessary to provide a buffer store of product ready for sale when the demand is there. With this in mind, the following factors can contribute to maintaining product integrity when beer reaches consumers.

    • Stock rotation

    – “First in, first out” should be a rule! Retailers of perishable products usually rotate older stock to be sold before newer stock. However, if possible and economically viable, brewer and retailer should agree on a (“positive release”) system that ensures that only beer that remains “true to brand specifications” should be released for consumption.

    • Storage conditions should reflect the style of product being stored.

    • Temperature

    – The optimal temperature range for filtered beer storage is below 40 ̊ F (4 ̊ C). Temperatures exceeding 50 ̊ F begin to rapidly encourage the development of off-flavors, and of course, staling (see Figure 1.5)”

    The bold above is my emphasis.

    Cheers!
     
  11. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    So much information!!

    FYI I am training very hard for the Certified Cicerone exam, and just finished my fourth Road to CIcerone coursebook( Keeping and Serving Beer, German Beer, Irish/English beer, and finally Brewing Ingredients and Brewing Process)
     
  12. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    I'd say that it's good you are working to help others understand what you are learning. A friend of mine used to say, "Knowledge is the only thing you can give away for free and wind up having more than you started with."
     
  13. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Oh Jack some of the other common off flavors are diacetyl and DMS whiching are brewing related, which can be iidentified by a server.
     
  14. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Thank you very much!

    I am very passionate about this road I been following, and I do love learning and teaching others!!!
     
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  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Giovanni,

    Below is something I posted in a past thread:

    “I attended a Sensory & Flavor Training presentation at the 2015 National Homebrewers Conference and in that presentation they gave you a base beer plus four others of that beer doctored with off-flavors: DMS, Diacetyl, Metallic and Chlorophenols. I could only take small sips of the beers with Diacetyl, Metallic and Chlorophenols because they were awful for my palate. I actually finished the DMS beer since it was not objectionable to me. I suppose all of the Rolling Rock beer I drank ‘back in the day’ got me accustomed to this alleged off-flavor.”

    Cheers!
     
  16. Etu001

    Etu001 Initiate (0) Jul 20, 2017 New York

    I'd hope both these off flavors are already caught by the brewer or the QA person before service. Typically, diacetyl is more commonly associated with dirty draft lines. Keep up the good fight!
     
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  17. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    I've been meaning to ask you for a while, what were your reactions to the GABF when you had that chance to attend? Did you use the strategy of going first to the furthest away from the door and working your way back? Did it work out?
     
  18. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Why would a brewery want to give their servers off flavor training? I can think of some benefits, but I would think that this would be a really low priority. Brewers should know DMS and servers should know hospitality.
     
  19. Giovannilucano

    Giovannilucano Pooh-Bah (1,975) Feb 24, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Really good question that I really been thinking of how to answer..but I could ask the brewers I trained for their insight snd input..
     
  20. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Servers should explain the beer - and hopefully things like DMS are not part of that conversation. If a customer suspects an issue and complains, it's not like the server will take a swig. Since you are teaching, I would think you'd know the benefits though.
     
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