Souring with yogurt for the first time.

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by TooHopTooHandle, Apr 21, 2018.

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  1. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    So I am going to attempt my first kettle sour tomorrow(6 gallon batch).

    Last night I took 6tsp of some Chobani Original Plain Non-Fat Greek Yogurt and added it to a 1.040 2liter starter and cooled it to 110 degrees. I have the starter on a heat wrap with a temp probe sitting at 105 degrees. I do not have a PH meter or papers so this kind of makes this situation a bit tough to know where the PH of the starter will land until I pitch it because I will be grabbing a one from a friend to use.
    Will 36-40 hours be enough time to drop the PH of this starter to 2.9-3.3?

    Also for this experiment I will be using malt that I have on hand which is a pale 2row. The only other thing I have on hand is flaked wheat. Will 2row alone be enough of a grist to use in producing a good kettle sour?

    So I plan to mash, lauter, sparge, then boil for about 10 to 15min then chill to 110, drop ph to 4.5, and pitch the starter in a carboy(6.5 gallon) which has a spigot so I can pull samples to test sour level and keep temp controlled at 100-110 degrees. I will fill the carboy as much as I can to eliminate headspace and also purge with co2 before adding the air lock/temp probe. Once desired level of sourness is achieved I will add back to kettle and do a full 60 minute boil. Should I add any hops at this point or not? I only have Willamette, Nugget, german hallertau, and Equinox on hand. Or should I leave it unhopped? Not sure what is appropriate for this style.

    I have a Kveik strain that I plan to ferment this beer out with that also has Lactobacillus in it. I just used this strain in a hopped pale ale and achieved an apparent attenuation of about 78.5%. I know if I use hops in the boil it will inhibit the lacto in the kveik. The kveik produced a nice citrus profile in the pale that I used it in. I would say similar to oranges.

    I do plan to rack this beer to a secondary on a fruit/fruits which I have not decided yet after it attenuates.
    Then keg and carb to 2.8-3.5vols.

    I have brewed many batches of beer, but never this style. If there are any tips that anyone has to offer who has done this it would be greatly appreciated. Any Do's and Don'ts. I have been reading stuff on milk the funk about this, but just wanted to chat with some people who have done this before and had good or bad results.

    I look forward to the feedback, Cheers!
     
    #1 TooHopTooHandle, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I haven't used yogurt, but I have soured many worts with naturally according lacto (from grains), and more recently with GoodBelly. I'm not sure why you need to drop the pH of your starter specifically to 2.9-3.3, unless it's just to say, "There must have been lots of cell growth, because the pH dropped." Also, I don't know how much bacteria there is in 6 tsp of yogurt, but I'll hazard a guess that in 40 hours at 105F in a 2L starter, you'd have most of whatever growth was going to happen. Last thought... my soured worts have looked pretty hazy/murky after souring, so that might be an indication.

    I think @jbakajust1 has some yogurt experience.
     
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  3. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    I use probiotics at home, yogurt at work. Let’s just say your method is waaay more involved than what we do. :grin:

    Mash as usual, collect all your wort in the kettle, chill to 115°, make a slurry of wort and yogurt and pitch.

    Chobani is a good brand. Make sure it’s non-fat. We usually achieve sub-3.5 pH in 16 hours. A pH meter is really useful here because different worts respond differently. At the very least, those little pH strips in the beer acidity range. Not terribly accurate, but better than nothing. And most importantly, if you smell any vomit/BO/decay flavors. DUMP! Good luck!
     
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  4. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    Thanks for the insight. Yes it is non-fat yogurt. I will have a PH meter once its time to brew.
     
  5. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I also did not think 6tsp would be enough, but from the reading I did it said to use "one spoon full" or "2 to 4tsp". After adding 4tsp it didn't look like much so I dabbed a couple more tsp in lol. Also the PH reference came from some of the reading I was doing. Like I said I am a complete noob with this process so I am just going off what I read and what I will try. This round will be an experiment and adjustments will be made on the next go around. The best way to learn something new is try it, so I am just diving in lol
     
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  6. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    Good that you’ll have a pH meter. Make sure to take care of it! Buy the calibrating solution and calibrate every month or so. Keep it in the holding solution when not in use. And despite any temp correction claims it may make, hot samples are always more likely to be inaccurate, in my experience.

    Also, you really don’t need too much yogurt, and I’d say a starter is totally unnecessary. We use 2 32oz cups for 18bbl of wort, so a little to-go cup should be plenty. Check the date, you want something that is about a month or more till expiration or souring may lag.
     
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  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Hot samples also lead to premature wear out of probes.
     
  8. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I'll agree, looks like your technique is too complicated. Collect the runnings, quick boil, drop to temp, drop a single serve yogurt in the kettle drop to 4.5 pH, pH test until mid-low 3 pH, boil quick with any hops, chill, pitch, ferment. Transferring to a carboy to sour before boiling will add O2 which can lead to all the off flavors that will ruin the beer.

    Keep IBUs below 12 for balance. I would whirlpool Ekuinot to play with the citrusy Kviek, and consider a fruit to play with the citrus as well.
     
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  9. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    only reason I am goin to a carboy is because I do not have the means to keep my kettle at 100 degrees. No way to control the temp on that. Its a big 15 gallon with electric element in it. It will not fit in my ferm chamber
     
  10. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I think you just solved your own problem there buddy.
     
  11. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    Been in the 30s here and my equipment is in an unheated barn. So leave my element on for 24 hours?
     
  12. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Bring the kettle inside. Hook it up to your temp controller. Clean the wire and probe really good then wipe down with Vodka. Put it into the wort near the element but not close enough to touch it. The element will kick in when the temp drops too low, it will turn off when the temp gets right.

    Just make sure to put the yogurt near the outer edge of the kettle so it doesn't get heated directly by the element.
     
  13. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    My elements are 240v so that wong work unfortunately
     
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you by any chance have a clothes dryer that runs on 240?
     
  15. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I dont unfortunately we have natural gas
     
  16. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    I’d say mash in early on a Saturday and runoff into the kettle. Go out to the barn every hour or so and hit the heat for a couple minutes to keep it around 115°. Let it fall as it will when you go to bed as most of the souring will be done at that point. Start up the boil Sunday morning.
    Or get a control panel...:stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  17. donspublic

    donspublic Grand Pooh-Bah (3,552) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Buy a sous vide stick, it can maintain your 115 for an extended period of time. They have gotten rather cheap.
     
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  18. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    I do have a control panel, just scared to leave it on while I'm at work for 10 hours lol just incase a fire happens. I got in the carboy now in the mini fridge at 110 degrees. I ended up fill the carboy from the spigot at a very slow rate to minimize aeration. I filled it to the very top also with the lid on until some over flowed a little bit to atleast push out as much oxygen as I could from the headspace.
     
  19. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    Sound method, and it’ll probably work great!
    But I do think kettle souring is one of the huge advantages we electric brewers have over the gas guys. If wired properly, there should be very little fire risk. Lots of people have heating elements in their hot water heaters and leave the house with them on without fear of fire. There are remote heat alarms available too which could be another option to look into. I usually do my kettle sours overnight so that if anything happens, I’m nearby, but it’s not a serious concern for me.

    I come from an electrician family. Seen a lot of fire damage from faulty electrical work and some cases where it was incredible that there WASN’T a fire. 99% of the time, it was ignorantly done DIY work, criminally bad pro work, or use of recalled or condemned equipment. All the electric homebreweries I’ve seen were set up great! Basically, if you set up your electric properly (by an electrician or someone who knows what they’re doing), leaving your kettle on is probably safer than the wiring in your house! :grin:
     
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  20. TooHopTooHandle

    TooHopTooHandle Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2016 New York

    So far things look, smell, and taste good. 16 hours after pitch the ph went from 4.5 to 3.8
     
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