What is a Barrel Aged Saison?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by thuey, Jul 21, 2018.

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  1. thuey

    thuey Pooh-Bah (1,705) Nov 13, 2015 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Tried to Google this, but I couldn't really get to the answer I'm looking for. Full disclosure: I think my favorite "sour" style may actually be the non-fruited Barrel-Aged Saison and/or a BA Saison Blend.

    But what exactly is it? What differentiates it from other sour beers? Is it an American invention, or are there examples with Belgian/European historical roots?

    From a first glance, it seems to be a Saison base beer made with lambic (natural) / American Wild (intentional) techniques. But I'm not really sure if that's accurate, since I'm no brewer.
     
  2. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    The saison style has roots in Belgium, and has been co opted by craft brewers and has become a catch all umbrella that references back to the beer being an americanized version of a Belgian inspired brew. They aren't all sour, they aren't all fruited, they aren't all barrel aged. For me, a saison should be light, effervescent, dry as a bone, and have a very phenol forward spiciness to it.
     
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  3. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,276) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    A barrel aged saison is exactly that, a beer that's been brewed with what these days is considered a "saison" yeast and then barrel aged.

    There are different strains of saison yeast that are more acidic than others, but historically almost all saisons coming out of the northern France/southern Belgium area were at least partially sour if not funky. Keep in mind they were not that strong, which is much different than today's versions.

    If what you're thinking of is soured that probably happened in the barrel, but there could have been other yeasts added as well. I'd imagine that historical versions all contained some amount of Brettanomyces which can give some acidity, but also some pedio or lacto cultures as well.

    I'm assuming you haven't read it but "Farmhouse Ales" by Phil Markowski is interesting, entertaining, and quite informative.
     
    #3 NeroFiddled, Jul 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  4. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    As @SFACRKnight mentioned, "saison" is, very unfortunately, very open to interpretation, but the key characteristics are well-attenuated, effervescent, and ester/phenol forward.

    If your saison is sour, outside of production techniques, not much.

    The type of beer that you enjoy is, basically, an American invention. Though Shaun Hill gets a lot of credit for popularizing them, there were other producers making very similar beers at the time, they just weren't calling them saisons. Many of them are in this category, American Wild Ale:

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/style/171/

    An interesting sidebar is the Biere de Coupage, which is a mixture of aged sour beer and young hoppy beer. Some lovely reading here:

    http://www.browneandbitter.com/2016/02/biere-de-coupage-some-background-and.html

    and here:

    http://www.thefarmhouseobsession.com/search/label/Bière de Coupage
     
  5. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Indeed. The problem with that is that you can have a "clean" barrel aged saison, a barrel aged saison with brett, a barrel aged saison with lactic acid bacteria, and a barrel aged saison that has both brett and lactic acid bacteria, and all those can be either fruited or unfruited. The bigger problem is that all of those are still considered to be saison, as long as the producer names them thusly. IMO, because of the US market, the term saison has lost just about any meaning. I really wish every brewer would either read or listen to Yvan de Baets before they even attempt to brew a saison. Here's to hoping that at least some of them do.

    Pre-Pasteur, that describes a large percentage of beer.

    As highly hopped as a lot of historical saisons were, I'd lean towards a pediococcus species providing the acidity, if they had it at all.

    IMO, a must-read for any lover of these types of beers.
     
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  6. BenHoppy

    BenHoppy Initiate (0) Nov 15, 2017 Michigan

    it can be hoppy too. But one thing that I get in almost all saisons I've had is a black pepper fruity flavor.
     
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  7. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Let me add to that list of variables by bringing up the different things that "barrel" can refer to.

    Unfortunately, when people say "barrel-aged" these days, more often than not they are talking about second-use barrels (for lack of a better term). Bourbon seemingly the most common type.

    In the case of saisons, "barrel aging" has referred to everything from foeders to whiskey barrels. Nonetheless, when I see an American saison that is labeled "barrel aged," I assume that the brewer is talking about the beer being aged in wine barrels. While that's obviously not the exclusive meaning, it signifies this more often than anything else in my limited experience (and with white wine barrel aged saisons being more common than red).

    Some lambic (which is historically related to saison) brewers/blenders use red wine barrels as well, but they use these barrels because they want less wood character influencing the beer rather than wanting the previous liquid influencing the beer. Typical American craft brewers tend to look at it in the reverse (at least in terms of marketing).
     
  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Mostly agreed, but ftfy.

    Wood, for the most part, should simply be a neutral vessel, not something that imparts character. These are not imperial stouts or barleywines, after all.
     
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  9. thuey

    thuey Pooh-Bah (1,705) Nov 13, 2015 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Right, but although maybe the only officially recognized style is American Wild Ale, most CA brewers will call *some* of their beers BA Saisons vs. BA Blondes vs. BA Sours. It seems like that distinction is rooted in what the base beer would normally be considered. But I see this in NorCal (Sante Adairius, Cellarmaker) as well as SoCal (Casa Agria, Cellador).
     
  10. Oconomowocian

    Oconomowocian Initiate (0) Mar 25, 2018 Wisconsin
    Trader

    I did the Casey tour this summer and they use wine barrels but they spend a lot of time and effort to clean them before filling. If I remember right it was red wine not white. They said it was all about the particular type of oak used by wine makers, it works great for their base beers (one of which is a Saison) they were not looking to get any wine influence on the beer. Great tour BTW.
     
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  11. Ahonky

    Ahonky Initiate (0) Feb 13, 2018 New York

    We have now fit "sour" into what a Saison's profile may encompass?
     
  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I think a lot of people get stuck on the fact that "traditional" saisons of yesteryear were not fermented with isolated yeast strains, making the probability that some were sour rather high. Although they probably were sour, that doesn't mean that they were intentionally so.
     
  13. JFresh21

    JFresh21 Savant (1,036) Mar 6, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    The best saisons I have had are sour (from Side Project). There are quite a few that are very earthy and pretty bland for my palate.
     
  14. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    "Best" compared to what?
     
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  15. JFresh21

    JFresh21 Savant (1,036) Mar 6, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    "Best" compared to the saisons that are earthy and minimal. Sometimes they are called table beer or table saison. If you look at the top 10 in the Saison / Farmhouse category almost all are sour.
     
  16. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    That's because people like sour beer and not necessary saisons. I would think this is the case with yourself, as well.
     
  17. JFresh21

    JFresh21 Savant (1,036) Mar 6, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    I like both but prefer saison's on the sour side. I go off what the brewer calls the beer or what it's categorized on beer advocate to determine style.

    There are some funky beers from Logsdon that are not sour like Side Project but have a excellent depth of flavor.
     
  18. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Well . . . if they're truly funky, they have Brettanomyces in them. Saisons do not require Brett, or acidity from LABs, to have depth of flavor. The beers from Dupont and Blaugies prove that.
     
  19. JFresh21

    JFresh21 Savant (1,036) Mar 6, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    Which non funky/sour saisons do you like best?
     
  20. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,036) Sep 14, 2002 Wyoming
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I reckon that he just mentioned a couple .:wink:
     
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