The craft beer industry: beer quality problems

I agree. It's not foolproof, as I've run into issues with a local brewery in particular that I've bought flat, undercarbed cans from, but they were quick to exchange/refund me so while not ideal, they did take ownership which matters. That being said, I feel like retailers generally do the same.

 

I'm surprised they don't have this but just because you have a license doesn't mean you know how to drive. It's amazing how many stupid college graduates are out there.

 

d

Here's the initial exchange. There's no humor in his response. Just sarcasm.

Notice that he didn't say that everyone should throw away 2-week old beer or that 2-week old beer was bad. Just that he felt that it is better during that 2 week window than it is afterwards, and, everything being equal, that he'd rather buy SNPA to drink than drink free beer from his own brewery. I don't personally subscribe to that mentality with my own beers, but to each their own.

The takeaway is this: when you misrepresent what someone says, it's easier to disagree with them. In my short time here on BA, I've seen this done to several members whose contributions have been based in science and empiricism. They now participate far less because of it and I think that the forums are worse off because of their lack of participation. Just don't like to see these forums get less great points-of-view just because the hivemind has more sway than their informed opinions do. That's how you turn BA into a hazeboi FB group and I don't think any of us wants that.

 

Homebrewers like Ken Grossman, Jim Koch, Sam Calagione, Vinnie Cilurzo...

I’m not disagreeing that many of the homebrewers gone pro nowadays are producing subpar beer (I think the recent rise in sustainable tiny brewhouses is largely to blame for this). But I strongly disagree that requiring certifications or mandatory degrees are the direction we should go. Frankly, if the BA embraced something like that, it would likely cause a schism large enough to effectively sink the organization.

I’ve worked with Siebel and UC Davis grads who were poor brewers and I’ve worked with world class brewers why barely finished high school. Craft brewing in this country has always been a peer-educated, apprenticeship style industry, and attempting to forcefully change that would be very detrimental to US beer culture.

 

Mandatory for brewing beer? Na. Mandatory for your brewery's packaging to wear a seal? Sure.

But do you not see the merit of continuing education of some sort?

 

But those craft beer pioneers started from scratch because they had to. Currently there is no excuse for a brewery opening without anyone with prior experience on a similar sized brewing system.

I am a homebrewer myself, but I have no delusions that my experience with 5 gallon batches makes me qualified to operate a 10 BBL brewhouse, or deal with the management of yeast, packaging systems, commercial kegs, etc.

Then just make some type of knowledge test about quality control procedures - something that people can either pass from knowledge gained via schooling or apprenticeship, it doesn't matter. As long as they know it.

 

Generally agree with you in concept, but there's at least one exception that I have seen personally. I would hope that a brewery would be managing inventory of packaged or kegged beers appropriately, so absolutely the concern should be less versus the retail shop.

But... I wouldn't assume that on every occasion. To pick on a brewery that has already taken a beating, one issue I always had when visiting Smuttynose was "old beer" being sold at the brewery. They would have some "fresh" beer in chill cases, but a lot of beer sitting out on unrefrigerated shelves was outdated, yet selling at what I assume is full retail price. Whether that reflects the whole lackadaisical attitude that developed at that brewery or not, hard to say. I don't remember seeing this when I first visited their new facility. Granted, in some cases it didn't matter - Stallion was a great beer even with significant age. Others like a couple of their pilsner-based brews, not so much. Brewery that we visited in Maine, too, was selling bottled beer over a year old at the brewery but the name escapes me at the moment. And I've been in more than one brewpub where the beer wasn't necessarily "off", but certainly stale and not at its peak of flavor.

I guess the question here is this - will a brewer dump aging product willingly and take that immediate financial hit? Be willing to bet that some will, but some won't.

 

If they are interested in being open in the future, they certainly should.

 

Does the Brewers' Association have the resources to perform the audits, though? Again, from my experience, a quality audit is much more involved than it sounds. They are quite comprehensive and include more than one would think. I've been the "processing expert" on several, and it's pretty much "wake me up when you get to my part", usually on the second or third day. There are also independent entities who conduct "external audits" which, if I am not mistaken, are actually required with some frequency or on request by customers. I know we have been asked to supply third party audit reports in addition to our pretty strict (ok...agonizingly strict having just gone through one) internal ones.

At any rate, it is either a commitment of people resources or opening up the checkbook by the BA.

 

The devil’s in the details. Who’s education/certification is required for the label? The owner? Head brewer? All brewers? Cellarmen, packaging, S&R, maintenance, etc?
The extent of the requirements is key too. Quick course on quality with a 20 question quiz and you get your seal? Sure, lots of breweries would sign up for that. Would it change anything? Unlikely.
Other end of the spectrum. Degree/mandatory certification of all brewery workers in a ‘seal’ brewery? There would almost certainly be revolt among members and mass exodus. It would widely be seen as elitist at best and regressive at worst.

Absolutely! I just believe that there’s more than one way to skin that cat. Accredited education is a system that works for many, but isn’t necessary. Abe Lincoln taught himself law in the 1800s. I just refuse to believe that in the age of the internet, the argument can be made that a brewery school will necessarily make you a better brewer than one who didn’t attend.

Its been brought up before, but the actual implementing of this would be massively expensive. Certainly beyond the BAs budget. On-site verification with scheduled audits of ‘seal’ breweries would cost many times over the cost of any independent seal marketing. Inspectors get paid very well.

They certainly didn’t have to. UC Davis has been open since the early 60s; Siebel’s been open since the 1860s! And there were certainly breweries in the US if they wanted to learn straight from pros...

No argument here! Making the leap is not as simple as multiplying everything by 60. My argument is that the traditional way of working your way up from scrubbing floors and taking responsibility for your own education, is in no way inferior to attending one of the aforementioned schools.

Sounds solid in theory, but there is plenty of historical evidence that shows how this can be corrupted. From the BAR, to nearly every technical certification, schools do NOT like being cut out of the profit, and over time, they will force a mandatory education module. It’s almost inevitable.

 

If everyone was, by nature, curious and wanted to constantly better themselves then this should work, but in the real world there are a lot of lazy people who are lazy because they can be.

The information is certainly out there if people want it, but I think people should be rewarded for doing their due diligence, don't you? If that means that all brewers from a brewery need to take an online course with a test at the end to qualify for a "QC seal", then I don't think that's asking too much.

 

Agree with much of what you say, but don't agree with the idea that it's about profit for the schools or that they can force an education module. Certainly for-profit school are interested in a continuing stream of revenue and generating money, but that revenue stream exists because there is a demand to which they are responding. (In the case of non-profits their goal is to provide quality training/education but profit doesn't enter the picture.)

 

The problem I see is that brewers will fall back on that and fail to take responsibility for maintaining their technical knowledge. I’ve seen it with some Siebel grads. I know a guy who refuses to believe biotransformation is a ‘thing’ because they never went over it when he was in Siebel 10 years ago.
It’s the same reason you see old doctors recommending things that have been outdated for years.
Or fat middle-aged cops that at one time passed a physical test.

There is also the potential to weaponize it and use it as an industry requirement. I’m already seeing this with the Cicerone program in service and sales.

I think the result of doing your due diligence and especially continuing to research and study the changing trends and scientific developments in brewing is making great, innovative beer, while the lazy and uneducated brewers make poor, boring, flawed beer.
The reward should be that your efforts result in superior profits, but sadly, I’m not so sure this is always the case.

 

Interestingly enough the two most common causes of failure for small businesses in general are poor management and inadequate or ill-timed financing. From what I've been seeing in the case of breweries over the last 10 years beer quality isn't even a close third.

 

I guess ‘force’ is pretty strong wording. I just have a strong suspicion that a certification that began as a standardized test with no mandatory education module would, over the course of a decade or so, require training at an approved trade school or college.

I’ve seen it in the trades and culinary that other members of my family are involved in. The interests of these institutions win over individuals every time.

Maybe living in Chicago, where corruption and under the table deals are the norm corrupts my worldview?

I mentioned Abe Lincoln previously. The days of studying your ass off and taking the BAR are over. If ol’ Abe was born today, he would never have had a path to presidency.

 

Well, in many ways training/education are like brewing. Quality control requires consistency. Some schools shouldn't even be open, but well run program will offer some adaptability to suit individual needs but there are certain basics that are considered to be crucial for all. The cooking schools I've observed do both classroom and hands-on.

For sure Lincoln would not become a lawyer in the modern world in the way he did back in the day, but I think this is more from social change than the training/educational institutions. E.g., Plumbers used to learn on the job working with a mentor, but plumbers these days do both schooling and "internship" with a pro to get their credentials these days.

 

Jack, we are agreed in principle here. There's no argument from me whatsoever on principle. I also agree that the upside down bottle thing is a waste of time/effort/money - it does nothing. I completely agree that poor quality beer might be damaging to brewers in general, not just a specific brewery, but you know where that discussion ends. Plenty of "lousy" breweries out there that haven't crashed and burned yet. So far, this seems to be where the "voting by wallet" idea isn't effective. In theory, "bad" beer will potentially affect anyone as I have said and "good" brewers may suffer the most. But in theory, bad breweries shouldn't stay in business - maybe they won't and it is just a longer cycle.

Where I diverge is the idea that the Brewers' Association is capable of (or responsible for) implementing and managing a comprehensive quality program from a budget (granted - we don't know how deep the pockets might be) or from a personnel standpoint. They can provide training - no doubt there's enough experts to provide training courses. Can they make it mandatory - doubt it. Can they develop, fund, and staff a method of auditing regularly - there's 7000-ish breweries, so it seems unlikely. Should they consistently promote best practices - absolutely. Can they develop a comprehensive system that is somehow enforceable and goes beyond the "look - I got a sticker" stage - have my doubts.

Even if there was a quality stamp, what would it mean? Like I said - I can have everything I need in place to meet USDA/FDA standards, but can still be putting crap product out on the market. I can meet all the objective measurements and best practices required to demonstrate quality control and fail miserably to meet the subjective. The practices can't tell me how to formulate a product. The Brewers' Association doesn't have any teeth by comparison. What would a BA quality seal of approval show?

Not saying the BA should throw their hands up in despair - the question in my mind is what can they do beyond promoting best practices that would be effective and meaningful to the consumer. That's where the wheels come off a little for me, because I am not even sure it would be meaningful for breweries any more than the "indie" label.

 

You are absolutely right. There was a social change in the way these trades are learned. I have a fundamental issue with that. I think it’s an affront to American individuality and in the internet age, inexcusable.

The other problem with comparing brewing to a trade like plumbing (I know I’ve made these comparisons too ) is that brewing isn’t paid like plumbing.
Brewers are paid like bartenders or tattoo artists, and the requirements are similar - loosely defined apprenticeship program, mandatory city and state license to work under, and voluntary certifications and additional training.