Does Minnesota drink beer the right way?

Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by islay, Jan 16, 2019.

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  1. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    Are you drinking the right beers? Does that question make you uncomfortable? City Pages seeks the answers.

    (Re: market saturation, underexperienced professional brewers, underdeveloped palates, "beer that tastes like cupcakes and juice," special releases, untraditional brewing, consumer preferences, FOMO, brewer v. consumer tastes, etc.)
     
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  2. FBarber

    FBarber Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,325) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Mod Team BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Overall the article is interesting although I suspect a rather superficial summary of Stutrud's thoughts on the current beer scene. A few things stood out to me.
    I hate this "beer should taste like beer" line ... BUT, learning the basics of brewing and then going from there is excellent advise every brewer should follow.
    I'm not standing in line for beer very often, but I do buy beer without trying it (and occasionally after standing in line) and that is almost 100% based on buying beer that comes from a brewer whose reputation I trust. I do wonder though how many people lining up for these releases do so based on the hype as opposed to an actual trust in the brewer's quality.
     
  3. nruhlig

    nruhlig Pundit (959) Jan 4, 2019 Minnesota

    A paraphrasing of Stutrud's thoughts:

    "Stop liking what I don't like"
     
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  4. ipeters1017

    ipeters1017 Initiate (0) Dec 15, 2016 Wisconsin

    Alternatively, "I don't have much of a sweet tooth"

    I buy beer from breweries I trust to make good no-frills styles. Summit is amazing at that, and I'd gladly shell out for an adjunct laden milkshake IPA from them because I expect it to be well made. But I'm not gonna buy a 20 dollar 4 pack from a new brewery who doesn't have a single lager in their lineup, for instance.

    I like his line about Todd Haug, and I agree that learning the rules before you break them is a good way to go. If there's any brewery in the state that can sustain itself on traditional styles while the market keeps demanding trendy IPAs, it's Summit, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't break into the upcoming generation of beer drinkers very much. To each their own.
     
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  5. sudo

    sudo Aspirant (215) Jan 6, 2016 Minnesota

    I don’t think that is what he is saying. He’s basically saying that most breweries aren’t taking the time to ensure quality assurance and perform good brewing practices so the end result is flawed beers.

    He’s not saying that hazy ipas are flawed or experimental stouts are bad, ect. But that the breweries producing them are not taking the necessary steps to ensure a quality product when making these styles. E.g basic brewing practices like clean healthy fermentation, no oxidation, dropping out polyphenals and oxilates prior to packaging, ect. ect.

    The article is just written in a way to stir controversy and click-bait.
     
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  6. Nuts4Barrel-aged

    Nuts4Barrel-aged Crusader (428) Dec 14, 2016 Minnesota
    Trader

    Definitely agree. How often are we talking on these forums about the latest canning of a NEIPA being off or different? Examples in recent memory being Dreamyard, Hooey, Pseudosue. I think that they are all great beers but can be somewhat inconsistent in packaging.
    I am guilty of going after the new beers and waiting in a few lines but have rarely been disappointed because I go places where I trust the brewery like @ipeters1017 said. I enjoy drinking new styles/beers but still go back to Saga, Two Hearted, and regularly buy Fair State’s flagship brews.
     
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  7. bbtkd

    bbtkd Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,790) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    While I applaud traditionalists who have excelled in their craft, I don't think we should become mired in the past. I like some traditional beers, including several Summit brews, but I also like other modern, innovative, and delicious brews. I think the craft industry would flounder if we depended on traditional brews.
     
  8. Benj68

    Benj68 Initiate (0) Apr 9, 2015 Minnesota

    But, but isn't Dark Infusion a non-traditional beer??? I kid, I kid.

    I understand his frustration, but I'll take a proliferation of haze cans, milkshakes, and over-adjuncted stouts any day vs. shitty macro-lagers everywhere. It's great you can go to a dive bar, ball game, or litterally anywhere that serves beer and not subjected to only Bud Light or Mich Golden. Even with candy-cans, craft beer is in a much better spot now than 8-10 years ago. Mark HAS to admit that.

    With how fickle people are with these trends, they'll probably all reach their zenith at some point. 4-5 years ago, if you said KBS, CBS, King Sue, and Darkness bottles could be found easily in 2018-2019, people would look at you like you had three heads.
     
  9. sudo

    sudo Aspirant (215) Jan 6, 2016 Minnesota

    You can be a non-traditionalist and have a really solid understanding of brewing sciences and necessary brewing practices that ensures a high quality product whilst also being modern, innovative, producing a delicious beers. This is basically what Mark was saying but the article completely skews this.
     
  10. Domingo

    Domingo Grand Pooh-Bah (4,252) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah

    This actually reflects the opinion of other brewers, too. Jason "Saison Man" Yester from Trinity brewing has basically said the exact same thing about beer in CO. and OR. As you might expect, it hasn't gone over very well.
     
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  11. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    I think Mark Stutrud is making several separate points:
    1. The market is saturated, and he advises against starting a new brewery as a general rule.
    2. Many new breweries are helmed by people without much experience, don't engage in adequate quality control, and put out low-quality product.
    3. "Stunt" beers that taste "like cupcakes and juice" are "stupid" and for people whose "palates aren't developed." [I'm quoting the article, not necessarily Stutrud.]
    All three points, while Stutrud may genuinely believe them, are self-serving to Stutrud as Summit's owner. Even though I do believe demand for craft beer is plateauing, I personally don't think the market is even close to saturated in terms of number of breweries, in large part because large regional breweries like Summit still have so much market share off of which new small breweries can siphon. For obvious reasons, I wouldn't expect Stutrud to be eager to make that point.

    While I agree that there are many bad, young, small breweries, I know that some of today's inconsistent small breweries are some of tomorrow's great breweries. I've personally witnessed multiple breweries led by brewers with no previous professional experience struggle in their early batches but quickly or at least eventually rise to putting out consistently high-quality product. Some have said that trajectory applies to 1980s Summit, although that was before my time. I don't want stringent demands for quality to turn into barriers to entry in an already overregulated industry with high fixed costs. Summit can afford serious, advanced (not just "quick and dirty") quality control, with highly compensated, full-time professional staff. Its much smaller competitors cannot. Stutrud is eager to tout his brewery's advantage in that capacity.

    The third point, the one that @sudo is downplaying, is the one with which I agree wholeheartedly. Such "stunt" beers are silly, even if the occasional truly enjoyable example emerges. Whether or not people want to admit it, the primary (though not sole) purpose of those beers is to appeal to hype-prone, callow drinkers brimming with enthusiasm for their new hobby. That long has been the standard take of experienced industry professionals, but it has taken awhile for consumers to catch on to the fact that many of the most buzzed about beers are better described as "gimmicky" (or "stupid") than "cutting-edge."

    That said, I certainly understand the business case for chasing the greenhorn market. Excellent breweries like Fair State and Shakopee Brewhall, helmed by brewers with far too sophisticated of palates to obsess over those beers themselves, are happy to help a fool part with his money (don't take that too literally and get offended; I'm just playing on the old saying). Niko Tonks and Ben Sallyard have been refreshingly honest in interviews about their true opinions on some of the beers they make. Summit may well be similarly inclined to exploit the same market, but Stutrud realizes that it's highly unlikely that a respected but old craft brewery like Summit can successfully pivot into the hip brewery that all the scenesters will queue up at (and, notably, Minnesota law does Summit no favors in this regard by prohibiting it from selling growlers and bottles at the brewery due to its large size).
     
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  12. Grave252

    Grave252 Initiate (0) Mar 12, 2017 Minnesota
    Trader

    Summit makes great beer, but it’s not innovative enough to be relevant in today’s playing field. Consumer habits change, and a lot of beer drinkers want hyper local, creative flavors, catchy can artwork, etc. The breweries having success are constantly trying new things and releasing new beers often. Summit might want to try making some of that “bad” or “stupid” beer, maybe it will help them return to profitability.

    It’s as simple as this - adapt or become irrelevant.
     
  13. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    Following trends shouldn't be confused with "innovation." There are very few truly innovative breweries in this state, and those few tend to be decidedly untrendy (e.g., Olvalde).

    I do think Summit rested on its laurels and coasted on a lack of local competition for many years. Surly's entry into the market should've been a wakeup call, and eventually it was, but only after a several year delay. Summit didn't start expanding past its core lineup until about a decade ago (Horizon Red and the beginning of the Unchained series in 2009). As many people long expected it would, it belatedly proved itself a capable brewery once it finally did. But I don't think, no matter how well it might nail trendy styles, Summit ever will have the cool factor to capture the attention of the scenesters, for the same reason that your grandpa will never be a hip hop star no matter how well he raps.

    I suspect that many of the breweries that have gone all in on the sugary trinity (NEIPAs, pastry stouts, and heavily fruited kettle sours) will find themselves in precarious positions when the cultural winds inevitably shift. Summit will not suffer that problem. Nor will breweries like Fair State and Shakopee Brewhall that indulge to some degree in the fads but retain a varied and versatile lineup outside of them.
     
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  14. BeerDrinkinGuy

    BeerDrinkinGuy Devotee (339) Nov 2, 2018 Minnesota

    I agree with many points but I will say Summit really needs to up their excitement game. All the breweries in NE MPLS have it down, but Summit still has a boring feel to it. Maybe they should make an unannounced NE IPA and blow the doors off the competition?
     
  15. Bravak

    Bravak Zealot (587) Sep 9, 2014 Minnesota


    Shakopee Brew Hall?
     
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  16. Bruno415

    Bruno415 Initiate (0) Dec 18, 2016 Minnesota
    Trader

    Yeah this surprises me.... have not heard anything much at all good or bad on this place....
     
  17. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    It's a great brewery, pushing my top ten in the state. It's overdue for some accolades here. I mentioned it because its head brewer, Ben Salyards, is quoted in the article. If you listen to him on some of the local beer podcasts (Minnesota Beercast, On Tap with Corey and Ira, A One Pint Stand, The Beer Show), you'll find that Salyard is remarkably well-informed, thoughtful, and articulate about beer, and his brewing in practice lives up to his extensive knowledge. Shakopee Brewhall excels in a wide range of beers, from craft staples to trendy fare to obscure and forgotten styles. I'll liken it to a suburban Fair State, minus the emphasis on sours.
     
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  18. Bruno415

    Bruno415 Initiate (0) Dec 18, 2016 Minnesota
    Trader

    Thanks for the info will have to check it out!
     
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  19. Bravak

    Bravak Zealot (587) Sep 9, 2014 Minnesota

    Interesting for a number of reasons.
     
  20. Bravak

    Bravak Zealot (587) Sep 9, 2014 Minnesota

    I respect your opinion.... but it is really far off from my own, quality wise.
     
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