Career in brewing industry

I don't ask anyone to work for free nor would I. I pointed out that if you want to work in a dream job then yes, you may actually have to work for less or do crap other jobs would not expect? Here is a real simple answer if you don't like what is offered then take another job? I don't think anyone is being forced to work are they?

 

Can you link those because I know I never said OP best get your butt out and work for free then? If I referenced the word at any time it was in regards to doing what it takes? I know what I said and I never said that is how it is. Context context context, when you reference my post please remember to read the entire sentence and its context? Please don't try and cherry pick a word out of context.

 

So if I donate my time at the local animal shelter helping out am I actually being abused? If I read your post right I am working and that = paid? Maybe I need to call the news.
Hang tight.

You do understand that in life people who want to do certain things actually will put in time to get to their dreams right? I guess today its just not that simple, you push a cart back to the store I guess they now owe you pay for doing a job, ok then.

 

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You're ignoring the difference between a non-profit and a private sector for-profit employer. Doing free labor in one case is volunteering/giving your time. Doing free labor in the other is exploitation of your time and illegal.

 

I understand. So let me ask then and this is being serious not trying to be funny. If I openly ask to work for free, zero pressure my choice is that wrong? I want to get 6 mos experience on my resume and I feel this is worth it. In that example is the brewery still wrong?
Just asking because I think each case needs to be looked at. I am 100% against abusing folks but what if some donate time because they can and feel it helps their long range goals?
Cheers

 

Would your choice be wrong? That's your call.

However, for me it would be wrong. I have no desire to work, volunteer or not, for any employer that engages in illegal activities whether knowingly or unknowingly. There are other ways to gain add to my resume with competent employers who do not enagage in illegal activities. Furthermore I'd have serious doubts about the organizational/mangement competence of any employer who didn't know they were breaking the law. That would be a serious sign of incompetent management or mismanagement.

 

Around here, Appalachian State U.in Boone has a full fledged brewing/fermentation program. In the shadow of the ex Miller brewery in Eden, Rockingham Community College has a very good brewing program. I'd bet Ohio has similar resources

 

I honesty don't know any breweries that would do this it was more an example than fact. If it goes on its beyond my knowledge since I cannot know what each company does across the globe and behind closed doors.
I believe that this entire topic is a personal choice to be honest. An adult of sane mind can make his/her own decisions as to what they feel is best for them. If you have a kid in college who wants to get 4 years experience while in school to drop on his resume and in order to do this he/she works for terms they establish who am I to tell them no. Do I promote this absolutely not but it is also not my job to dictate to others how to make decisions. So at the end of the day the entire argument comes down to a persons choices and decisions does it not.
On a side note compensation comes in many forms. For some 4 years experience is worth more than $7.50 an hour. So a lot of folks need to understand that there are many ways to be paid. What is experience worth? Are you expecting pay, do you even want it? In order to be fair each case would have to be looked at to determine how it was established, that is the only fair way to judge said brewery.

 

I’m really not sure what this conversation has spiraled into. @jesskidden simply mentioned that if you work for a profit-making company, you legally deserve minimum wage. And some breweries are trying to push the boundaries in a risky direction.

Free labor in a for-profit company is simply illegal. It’s up to the company to decide if they want to risk breaking the law. And it’s up to the individual whether they want to risk that too.

It seems like no one is outright disagreeing...Maybe my sleep-deprived brain is just having a hard time following along

 

Well there are breweries that have done that so you chose an example from the real world and have effectively been arguing that it is just fine for the brewery to engage in illegal activities and that it is just fine for them to exploit the young, the inexperienced, and/or those hungry for experience.

 

I never once advocated for any company doing this. I believe I said it is a matter of choice. If you feel that adults cannot decide for themselves right from wrong that is another conversation for another day. I cannot find one post from above where I said I hope companies do this or should do this. My entire point was based on a hypothetical that a person may do in order to achieve a goal. Sounds like there is a lot more going on with others with this subject that hits home but for me its always been a conversation not actual companies and people.

 

Michigan has a couple community college programs too. One is in suburban Detroit and one is in Grand Rapids. I don't know anything about either one as regards openings into the schools, length of program, residency requirements, etc.

 

Where to start?

1) Having people work for free is illegal
2) When you pay someone nothing, you most often get exactly what you pay for (Man, I don't feel great this morning, I'm gonna blow off my volunteer "job")
3) Talking about privilege, the only people that can afford to work for free are the definition of privilege.
4) It's an unfair advantage to the brewery that "hires" volunteers
5) After your 6 months are over and you want to get paid for your work, good luck. There's a line 20 deep waiting to work for free

I'm amazed that this is even a topic of conversation.

 

Yeah, as I mentioned up thread, Skagit Valley College has a 2 year program, and Central Washington started a 4 year program a few years ago. The opportunities are out there these days.

 

The issue that you're somehow missing is that while it is a reality that some breweries do ask for volunteers, it is morally and ethically reprehensible, not to mention literally illegal. No one should have to work for free in order to pursue their dream job, and "dream job" doesn't have to be something that isn't realistically attainable (like the example you gave of your dream job), which being a brewer is not even close to.

Somewhat tangentially, I think unpaid internships are unethical as well, for the same reasons. Gaining experience doesn't put food on the table and keep a roof over your head, and giving people no choice but to work/intern for free in order to get a job that they want will only allow the privileged to be able to afford to take said position, thus creating further economic inequality. This is bad for everyone (except those benefiting from taking advantage of those beneath them).

 

I am an ASE master technician, I have 20 years in the industry under my belt, and have been a shop foreman for the last 10 years. More and more do I have confrontational apprentices who feel they somehow deserve my pay and status without having the actual knowledge and abilities to do my job. It's no surprise that the same issues are popping up in other trades.

 

Also, people work for free all the time. It's called an internship. It's essentially voluntary work that's used to bolster your resumé, and it is legal guys.

 

The DoL "Internship" rules (recently "loosened" by the current administration) are pretty involved, but are based on 7 questions to determine if they are legally "employees" rather than students, and to find the following:

These "scrub floors/wash kegs/haul grain bags/serve samples" jobs by non-brewing school students likely couldn't not be "Yes" answers to:

 

Yeah, even the anti-worker, "pro-capitalist" types* should see that one brewery using volunteers puts the legal brewers who play by the rules and obey the state and Federal labor and other laws at a competitive disadvantage as far as the expense of worker wages & benefits go. Minimum wage - as "unlivable" as it is in many regions - is at least a base level playing field.

The labor union theory of having wages set the same throughout an industry by contract (and brewing was once noted for being one of the earliest industries to be considered "100% organized" - pretty much pre-Pro) is that brewing companies should compete in the marketplace based on factors other than workers pay.

*Granted some of those of the libertarian bent don't believe in the labor laws or alcoholic beverage laws and licensing.