Opinion: The IPA Paradox

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by islay, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    I would personally think that having 5 different locally brewed high quality German style pilsners to be a good spread, and then you probably have some non-local brands too I'm guessing. But how many IPAs are there on those same shelves? I get the feeling that the people who worry about, or complain about, a lack of options, are comparing the availability of say pilsners to that of IPAs, and think that because there aren't 50 different pilsner brands on the shelves, that there is insufficient diversity or a lack of options. I.e it seems as if their definition of diversity and having options is for each style to have the same number of brands, or skus, as IPAs have now, which would mean an exponential increase in the number of beers on the shelves. Maybe I have them pegged wrong, or exaggerate a bit, but I do get the feeling that this is how they view things.

    There might be some unrealistic expectations about diversity at work here, and maybe people are overlooking the actual variety that exists from a qualitative as opposed to a quantitative perspective.
     
    #21 Crusader, Mar 16, 2019
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  2. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    Imagine for example a store where there are 5 different local IPA skus and then a handful of non local IPA skus. With a similar number of skus for other styles in the same store. Would this be viewed as a reasonable amount of variety, or would it be thought of as lacking in options.

    I remember a while back there was a discussion about the Swedish alcohol monopoly and some were saying that the claim by the monopoly that they offer variety was disingenous since in Sweden they offer x thousand different brands of wine, whilst in France they have 20 000 wines to choose from. I thought this exemplifies this mindset. Their definition of variety was to have access to not simply x thousand wines, but 20 000 wines.
     
    #22 Crusader, Mar 16, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  3. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Yes, there are non local Pils beers available too, indeed the one I have planned for this weekend is non local.

    I'd certainly agree that there are unrealistic expectations about diversity at work. Sure there are a lot more IPAs than there are Pils beers but that doesn't mean Pils beers have become unavailable. Their numbers may be increasing more slowly than the numbers of the fad beers called IPA but they are still there.
     
    #23 drtth, Mar 16, 2019
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  4. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    This ties into what I mean when I say that nothing's fundamentally changed for me- just as in the old days (35+ years ago), I still have a circuit of stores that will suit my needs/desires in terms of variety and quality beer. It's just what being a niche customer is all about, whether it be beer, wine, music, food, movies, books, on and on- the stuff's out there, but you have to network a bit.

    So, yeah, maybe those unrealistic expectations do come into play when one is only looking at their local shop, grocery, 7-11, whatever...but it's always been that way. When people talk about how there was "no good beer" to be had that long ago, they just weren't looking in the right places. And no one place can possibly satisfy all needs, in any event.
     
    #24 TongoRad, Mar 16, 2019
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  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Michael, do you think that was the case for somebody living in Arkansas? Do you think they had "right places" to purchase 'good' beer?

    Cheers!
     
    #25 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
  6. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    If something made it into the state then sure; and yes, some places were a lot more difficult than others to manage. But if I were in a situation like that I'd be willing to make a monthly or bi-monthly trip to some city within a few hours drive and load up the trunk.

    But, also keep in mind that I went to many a place that was, let's say, not-so-metropolitan back then and didn't have any issues finding something to drink that wasn't a crappy AAL.
     
    #26 TongoRad, Mar 16, 2019
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  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yup, you are a beer appreciator vs. a casual beer drinker that just purchases beer locally (in their city/hometown).

    Last fall I was camping near Hot Springs, AR and in town there is now some good choices. We visited two brewpubs and the beers there were pretty good. I noticed at one place they were selling a fair bit of canned beers for folks to take home and drink.

    Cheers!
     
    #27 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
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  8. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    No doubt- I've been in a BIF where I received a number of AR beers, and really enjoyed them all.
     
    #28 TongoRad, Mar 16, 2019
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  9. oldbean

    oldbean Initiate (0) Jun 30, 2005 Massachusetts

    There are too many IPA threads nowadays. Please eliminate three.
     
    #29 oldbean, Mar 16, 2019
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  10. Tilley4

    Tilley4 Pooh-Bah (2,811) Nov 13, 2007 Tennessee
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    This thread makes me want a Summerfest....
     
    #30 Tilley4, Mar 16, 2019
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  11. MNAle

    MNAle Initiate (0) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    A couple. First, with this statement you quoted, he contradicts (a little, anyway) his earlier statement:

    "It’s pretty clearly the case, at least, that if you put “IPA” on something, it’ll sell better than if you didn’t. Just look at all the beers that have been pushed into an “IPA” category in the last couple of years."

    Pushing more and more variety into the "IPA" moniker reduces diversity in naming, not in beer.

    Secondly, he is viewing the MN craft beer scene with blinders on, perhaps focusing on brewers similar to his. Clearly, the three largest brewers in the state, in aggregate, are producing a huge variety of styles very well done and readily available.
     
    #31 MNAle, Mar 16, 2019
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  12. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    I think this bit of shopping at more than one place (and more than one zip code) is important in thinking about this diversity issue. Around here at least bottle shops are more likely than grocery stores to have lots of singles and a higher percentage of IPAs.

    Similarly, different grocery stores from the same chain don't all stock the same range of beers. E.g., I know at least one store that has an end cap that's often all Leinenkugel, but none of the other three grocery stores I visit has any Leinenkugel in stock at all.
     
    #32 drtth, Mar 16, 2019
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  13. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    I see multiple mentions in this thread of the increased number of pilsners available. That's both a good and bad counterexample, good because it's accurate, bad because it's a misleading exception. Yes, there has also been a (much smaller compared to IPAs) surge in pilsners in recent years. The same is true for kellerbiers/landbiers, Berliner weisses, and goses, albeit in untraditional forms for the latter two. But, for German styles (yes, I know pilsners originated in the Czech Republic), that's about it. Where have all the amber lagers gone? Dortmunders? Kolsches? Schwarzbiers? Dunkels of various sorts, be they dunkel lagers, dunkler bocks, or dunkelweizens? Sure, you can find occasional examples, especially from the relatively few German-oriented breweries, but they're no longer broad brewpub staples. The same goes for many styles in the English, Belgian, and even American traditions that made up the backbone of American craft beer in the 1990s and first decade of the 21st century.

    I do agree with the point that brewers and consumers alike are far less open to experimentation in certain styles than others. Notice that Tonks showed particular disdain for the IPL, as if a hops-forward lager utilizing modern American hops is ridiculous on its face. Part of the explanation for the surge in popularity of pilsners and kellerbiers is that brewers increasingly are using non-traditional hops that both suit the beers more for the flavor expectations of today's consumer base and allow for more variety within the styles from even a single brewery.

    It seems to me that increasingly limited style variety is available at individual bars and taprooms, which tend to devote big chunks of their taplines to a few market-favored styles. Sure, there are more beer bars and taprooms than there used to be, and perhaps more representations of styles in aggregate, but fewer on any given visit to a typical venue.

    What some people are saying about more style variety being available in bottle shops compared to, say, five years ago, if only due to the sheer number of offerings (not necessarily in proportional terms), probably is true in my market, but I believe there is less absolute (not just proportional) style variety readily available in stores than there was two years ago. In other words, we may be in the early stages of an any-way-you-slice it decline in style variety that either varies by market or onto which many people have not yet caught.
     
    #33 islay, Mar 16, 2019
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I provided one example where Tired Hands, renowned for their Juicy/Hazy hoppy beers, produces a Schwarzbier (and even cans them).
    Plenty of Belgian style ales being produced by small, local breweries in my area.
    That may be the case in Minnesota but this statement is incorrect in my area. There are more beer styles/brands available to me then I can even hope to consume. And I strongly suspect that in 2020 I will say it has even expanded more.

    Cheers!
     
    #34 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
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  15. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    IIRC Brauhaus Schmitz has at least two Schwarzbiers on tap and 4 or 5 Dunkels.
     
    #35 drtth, Mar 16, 2019
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  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yes, if you include the availability of imports the selection sphere is even greater.

    Cheers!
     
    #36 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
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  17. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Indeed, and I think they should be included since those are among the beers we are told are also being driven off the shelves and tap lines by IPAs.

    Edit: This is also where I think @TongoRad makes a good point about shopping around. For us here in SE PA the range of different styles is still there, it just isn't all in one place.
     
    #37 drtth, Mar 16, 2019
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Agreed.

    Cheers!
     
    #38 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Another example would be our local beer bar/restaurant of TJ’s. There are 24 taps which are admittedly hoppy centric but there are 10 ‘alternative’ taps for those who prefer non-hoppy beers including:

    · Andechser Doppelbock Dunkel

    · Weihenstephaner Original Lager (Helles)

    · Sly Fox Pikeland Pils

    · Tripel Karmeliet

    · Allagash White (Witbier)

    · Franziskaner Hefe-Weissbier Naturtrüb

    · Bell’s Amber

    · Etc.

    Jeff is providing us craft beer consumers with choice.

    Cheers!

    https://tjsbeer.com/whats_on_tap.asp
     
    #39 JackHorzempa, Mar 16, 2019
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  20. islay

    islay Savant (1,211) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    Practical import availability definitely has shrunk overall in the Twin Cities area and far beyond over the course of the last decade or so. There's a small handful of stores with wide import selections. For the rest, American craft beer largely has crowded imports off the shelves, and many bottle shops known for craft beer selection now contain only a single shelf of craft-type imports (as opposed to, say, Corona and such), often supplemented by a single fridge dominated by the larger, blander producers.

    The point about the need for "shopping around" is accurate; there certainly is great variety to be found; it just takes more knowledge and effort than it did a couple of years ago, knowledge that few consumers have and effort that few will take in practice.

    I've posted about this sort of phenomenon frequently, and some people seem to want to turn it into some sort of indictment of the Twin Cities beer scene in particular. There certainly are far better, more extensive, and more advanced beer scenes than that here. From my travels, I'd say all of those are west of here (think Colorado, Washington, Oregon, and swaths of California), with possible exceptions for western Michigan and Vermont. Otherwise, the Twin Cities area is roughly on par with or beyond the other major markets when it comes to craft beer. It features more than 120 visitable breweries within an hour's drive of the heart of the Twin Cities, which I believe is more than does Chicagoland in realistic traffic, for instance, and the historical nationalities-of-origin of the Upper Midwest give Minnesota and Wisconsin one of the best German-style craft beer bases in the country (something that also goes for Pennsylvania). While this market has enthusiastically adopted the NEIPA craze, with its tendency to distract from superior offerings, it has done so to a lesser degree than has essentially the entire East Coast or Chicago, as far as I can tell.

    I don't want my open-eyed honesty, perhaps cynical attitude, lack of active homerism, and admission that these trends can vary by market to be mistaken for an indictment specifically of my area or to let broad sections of the country off the hook as if the same phenomena don't apply. If you live in a major metro area in which practical style variety truly is on the increase, bully for you, but I strongly suspect you're in the minority, especially in the Northeast. If you live in a smaller town or limit yourself largely to deep-suburban or exurban beer shopping or drinking experiences, it's quite plausible that your immediate vicinity remains on the upswing in this realm.
     
    #40 islay, Mar 16, 2019
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