German Schwarzbier

Would that subtle difference be enough to push it into a different category though?

Also, what would you say is the difference between toasted pumpernickel and melanoidin to your palate?

For me the melanoidin character from Munich malts comes across as darker breads/bread crusts.

 

Does not pour light. There are other beers in their keller series, but heavy trommel is dark.

 

All the more frustrating that I can't find it...

 

From the linked article:

“At one point in the not so distant past all beer was brewed in open fermenters. Open fermenters were designed solely by the technology and raw materials available. Today, modern tanks are designed to maximize efficiency, yeast health, and ease of use. Since yeast is an important flavor component to beer, using open fermenters changes the flavor characteristics of the finished product.”

As a brewer I am familiar with the aspect of open fermentation for ales (e.g., English Ales, Hefeweizen,…) and how open fermentation can influence the flavor profile of those beers. Lager fermentations (typically conducted cold) generally result in a ‘cleaner’ profile in the resulting beers. Lager yeasts fermented cold do not produce much in the way of perceptible esters (e.g., fruity flavors). I wonder if an open fermentation of lagers really changes the beer flavors much.

Cheers!

@NeroFiddled @honkey @SierraTerence @SixpointMikey @erway

 

I would also add @JacksAbbyBrewing

 

Have you noticed anything specific in the flavor profile of the differing Jack's Abby lagers? Is there something 'different' about their Kellerbier series lagers vs. their 'regular' lagers?

Cheers!

 

Hmm, that's an excellent question, which is hard to answer.

They've had so many beers in the Kellerbier series, in varying styles, that it might be hard to compare it to a specific style in their regular line-up.

That being said, I really loved their "Franconian Kraft".

Franconian Kraft is a kellerbier style from the region of Franconia in Bavaria. This kellerbier utilizes floor malted specialty malts from Germany, and is hopped with a noble hop, Perle. Franconian Kraft was decoction mashed and open-fermented to express the ingredients unique qualities in this recipe. It is a rustic, amber, and malty interpretation of a classic country lager. Like the rest of our Kellerbier Series, Franconian Kraft is left unfiltered.

This beer was what I think of when I think of a "classic" Kellerbier. Sort of like an unfiltered Helles. So I could compare this to their House Lager, which is not part of their Kellerbier Series.

It's been awhile since I've had Franconian Kraft, but I would definitely say the mouthfeel was fuller, perhaps some "fruitier" characteristics in there, with a more rustic feel, and far more character.

 

The latest one I picked up is the Hurts Like Helles Maibock, and there is definitely a light fruity undercurrent there-white grape/white raisin, pear. But how much of that is due to the open fermentation would be the real question, I suppose.

 

Have you noticed any difference in the amount of sulfur compounds between the Kellerbier series lagers and the 'regular' lagers?

Cheers!

 

I think it's a matter of degree and balance, what's the overall direction the beer leans towards. Munich malt in and of itself will have that toasted bread crust quality, with just a tiny bit of caramelization. If you throw decoction mashing, kettle caramelization, water chemistry, even recipe formulation into the mix, that's where you'll see the difference. The Munich Dunkels, especially among the big six types, are quite rounded and polished in nature, with the toastiness being more of an undercurrent. Others can be more rustic and angular.

Whether that merits a separate category or just a more broad one is actually a good question that I don't have an answer to just yet. But if you're going to only have one category it shouldn't be the more specific and narrow one, as a general rule..

 

I believe this is the first year that this beer has been a part of their Kellerbier Series.

Come to think of it, I don't even know how old their "Kellerbier Series" is.

Maibock Hurts like Helles has been around for years.

Nope definitely no difference regarding sulfur.

 

Thanks for that input. The only potential difference that I could see for open fermentation when producing a lager is that this would permit increased release of sulfur compounds from the fermenting beer.

Well, I am at a total loss here. Hopefully some of the folks that were tagged might be able to provide some insight here.

Cheers!

 

I found it interesting @TongoRad also recalls perceiving some fruitiness from another beer in the Kellerbier series.

I have one can left of Maibock Hurts Likes Helles, I'll try to remember this conversation to see if I pick up some fruit notes.

 

In the Maibock thread @Roadkizzle posted:

“Except both the Dead Guy and Hofbrau had a strong alcohol flavor which contributes I think to you're assumption of the fruit esters because I tasted the fruitiness in both beers.”.

Perceiving some fruitiness does not 100% mean it is due to esters.

Cheers!

P.S. “The individual alcohols playing the most important role in beer flavor include propanols and butanols conveying alcoholic, wine-like, and ripe fruity notes…”

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/nXV1H11MgY/

 

In general I'd assume that most of the "dark fruit" qualities in bocks or higher gravity beers comes from the malt component, but the role of alcohol as an enhancer or 'facilitator' is a good point to bring up.

But in the case of Dead Guy most of the fruitiness I remember getting was hop derived (like a citrus/apricot thing).

 

Yeah, it could be a complementary sort of thing I suppose?

Cheers!

 

Interesting.

I don't really recall picking up fruit notes in a Maibock before. Of course, we all do have different palates, and perceive things different.

I've had plenty of Oktoberfests in which people claimed they were picking up caramel notes, and I was picking up melanoidin/bready notes.

 

Amen!

Also drinking a beer blind vs. knowing what beer it is (and where it was brewed) significantly influences things as well.

Cheers!