How to classify India Pale Lagers?

Just as a follow up, based on historical information, IPA would be the traditional category for all beers that met this traditional flavor profile, regardless of how it was achieved. I know the name ale and India could be wrong according to how it was prepared. But, everyone knows what to expect from an IPA flavor profile.

 

Let's try not to be sarcastic. I'm talking about major differences in what to expect from a beer in basic categories. Not differences within a category. For example, a stout vs. a pilsner. If these resemble each other, you are in another category. The whole reason for this thread is that all beer does not taste the same. If you disagree that a stout and pilsner are different, then maybe alcoholic kool aid fortified with either oatmeal or grape juice is for you.

 

Agreed. There is a lot of work to do depending how we want beers classified.

 

Which SN beer are you referring to? 'cause none of their lagers are particularly high hopped.

"India Pale" is no longer tethered to the original definition. IP has come mean hop forward ales. There may be complimentary flavors, but hops are the stars vs carry the loads. Just as "Imperial" is coming to mean stronger flavors with higher alcohol, and "American" translates as more hops than the European version.

Right up front, I'm not partial to IPA's. German Pilsners or SN PA are about as hoppy as I normally go. So, for me, what a brewery calls their beer matters (see my review of Ommegang's Prost Cologne "kolsch"). When I look at the label on a can or bottle I like to have a general idea what that beer will taste like.

Many Winter Lagers have a flavor profile similar to Belgian Dark Ales, should they be lumped together? Do Dunkel Weißen taste enough like Dunkel that they should be classed together; even though they are very different beers?

Let's just look at these IPA offerings from SN
1) an intense rush of hop flavor and the lush aromas of mango, papaya, and passionfruit with every sip.
2) aggressive yet balanced beer featuring the complex citrus, pine, and herbal character of whole-cone hops

Decadent makes these two IPA's:
1) double dry hopped IPA. Notes of grapefruit, orange and pear and white grape dance on the palate while undertones of caramel compliment the citrus aroma.
2) the velvety soft goodness of Japanese cherry blossom mochi using pressed cherry blossom leaves, Madagascar vanilla bean, and home made marshmallow.

Maybe after the IPL question is settled we can talk about a separate Fruit/Tropical/Flavored IPA style? 'cause "discussing" beer styles is almost as much fun as sampling them .

 

Probably this beer...

Most people would not confuse the flavor profile or even the appearance of a Dunkel Weizen and a Munich Dunkel.

People could easily confuse an IPA and an IPL.

 

Commenting on the part I bolded - We'd be in better shape if we just recalibrated the faulty way we approach the lager/ale divide. As I mentioned in my post above, there already are beers made with "top fermenting" yeast that we've put in lager categories and vice versa - so it's already a "thing." First off, it's problematic that we think that everything in the beer world is either a lager or an ale. Secondly, and more directly related to the topic, it's problematic that we subscribe to the idea of an "ale or lager yeast" and that such a yeast makes that respective kind of beer. The issue is that the architecture is build on a faulty foundation.

 

Something new every day. I've never seen that beer, looks like it's been retired for a couple of years. At least there is truth in advertising with the name "it's a hoppy lager, we're not going to make up a style for it".

You're right, that was a poor example. My battery was dying and that was the first comparison that popped into my head.
If you're making categories based solely on flavor profile, as has been suggested, the BJCP guidelines for Vienna Lager

and Blonde Ale

are, arguably, close enough to be in the same category.
Then again, how much of a flavor difference is needed before there's a new category?

BA's system of gradually narrowing categories and styles works well for both rating and describing. The groups are broad enough to accommodate variations and sub-styles can be added when popular profiles diverge too much from the parent. Such as with tropical/fruit IPA and IPA mimicking lagers

The problem isn't with the system, it's with the fact that it has gone too long without maintenance. To redefine, prune, and add styles then ensure that all of the reviewed beers are moved into the appropriate category would be a herculean task.

Take, for instance,

with 767 beers dating back to at least 2009 (looks like BA already has a category for IPL ). That's a minor category with, relatively, few beers; I'd hate to take on IPA or American Lager.

 

The problem is that you can make a Kolsch with an ale yeast, and depending on ingredients and fermentation, it may taste like a traditional pilsner or light lager. And, as the thread has stated multiple times, you can take a beer fermented with lager yeast, and hop it up (IPL) to taste like a traditional IPA. Maybe, just name by the style no matter how it was created. For instance, India Pale style beer, Porter style, Stout style, Pilsner style. Obviously sub-categories of each style would be included too. Then, to know more about how it was created, you have to do your own research, or maybe some of the information is listed on the label. I'm just throwing this out there for feedback. It may not be a solvable problem without a government entity, or beer governing body coming in and throwing like a metric system at it, lol.

 

They've done it before. I think it was years before they called Celebration Ale an IPA. And "Hazy Little Thing" isn't called a New England IPA, it's just called a "Hazy IPA".

Personally I don't think those two are close at all. I see what you're getting at, and you're right. This idea CAN work for some styles, but not these two, despite there being some similarities.

First, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you're EVER going to get fruity esters from a proper Vienna Lager. And that "toasty" character is a major component to a great Vienna, because the brewery likely used Vienna malts.

Also, "Blonde Ale" is kind of a catch all category like Saison in my opinion. I don't think there's really a bench mark for the style, whereas with a Vienna, it's a very specific style.

I feel like half the time "Blonde Ale" is just used for brewer's that are attempting something like a Kolsch, but are just making a hoppy (and probably poor) American version. It's really just a somewhat hoppy easy drinking ale.

Regarding the "European Dark Lager" category, I think that works because there's much less examples in this database.

If this were "Czech Beer Advocate" you'd never lump an adjunct dark lager with a proper Czech dark lager.

You do make some good suggestions in your post in my opinion.

But I think someone who's had some experience drinking proper fresh examples of a German Pilsner and Kolsch (bonus points if they're from the source) could easily pick out the differences in a Kolsch and German Pils.

You'll get some fruity characteristics and a subtle white wine/grape flavor from a Kolsch. You should never pick that up in a German Pilsner and it will most likely be hoppier than a Kolsch, especially a Northern German Pils.

While an IPL should be cleaner and crisper than an IPA, beers this hoppy can cover up certain characteristics. A Kolsch (typically) won't be hoppy enough to cover up the differences between it and a German Pils.

 

I agree with you, but... I made a Kolsch, ok, I was trying to make a German Pilsner, and had no ability to ferment in the low '50's. So, I made a recipe as close to that as I could find and used White Labs California 001 yeast and fermented at 65 degrees and I called it a Kolsch. Anyway, it came relatively close. I made the same using Wyeast Bohemian Lager 2124 fermented at 65 degrees and came close. Of course, it was lager yeast fermented at low ale temps.

 

 not just NO, but HELL NO!

The Beer Judge Certification Program already has a comprehensive style guide at http://dev.bjcp.org/style/2015/
(link to easier to use pdf https://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf).

The Brewer's Association also has their style guide (https://www.brewersassociation.org/educational-publications/beer-styles/ - pdf at https://www.brewersassociation.org/resources/brewers-association-beer-style-guidelines/)

These are comprehensive style guides, yet neither one has a listing for what brewers call Brut IPA or NE IPA. Craft brewing styles and tastes change too quickly for any government agency or private organization to maintain and enforce strict guidelines.

 

But you get what I'm saying. I'm familiar with Viennas, but off the top of my head I can't remember having any blonde ales. I was going solely by the written descriptions and trying to show the flaw in taste only groupings; that two beers may share a similar flavor profile on paper, but still be different brews.

That was simply to show how difficult it would be to throughly clean up BA's listings. What was meant to be a temporary catchall has never been cleaned up (this is where BA says you're supposed to put an IPL).

 

I understand. I am entering beers in next years Homebrewcon and these are the guidelines.What I want to submit doesn't neatly fit in a category. Anything outside the box, at least for IPA, goes into a few categories and then Specialty IPA which covers everything else. I can't neatly put everything into one guideline. I think that this problem really can't be solved due to the diversity of beer. Thanks be to the Beer Gods for this problem. Enjoy whichever style problem is yours.

 

Assuming you used Pils malt for both, that is a prominent flavor in each style. I can definitely see the two being similar.

Depending on the hop profile they could be more or less similar.

They effectively have New England IPA covered with their "Juicy/Hazy" pale ale/IPA categories.

I do get what you're saying, and I agree.

I just wouldn't have used those two styles either. I think of a Vienna like a "lighter" amber Oktoberfest (maybe slightly hoppier too).

I would NEVER consider a Blonde Ale a "lighter" amber Oktoberfest. And if someone made an amber style Oktoberfest that tastes like a strong Blonde Ale, I'd slap them in the face.

 

Well...
https://dafteejit.com/2015/03/tracing-the-origins-of-vienna-lager/

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vienna-lagers.563586/

 

Well sure, we can debate about what it should be, just like with Pilsner. And also they've both changed throughout history, as all styles have.

But at the heart of each style, I personally feel the brewer should at least use the malts for which the style is named after.

And if I go to Vienna, I sure as shit am not going to be drinking a Blonde Ale labeled "Vienna".

 

Would you even find a Vienna in Vienna?