2019 Imported Oktoberfests Blind Tasting

cheers!

 

Interesting, I didn't know that.

I mostly mentioned it though because some examples use caramel malts, but it can be subtle. This year's Sierra Nevada is an example (see below for their malt profile). And Sam Adams is an example that is heavy handed with the caramel malts (to my palate anyways).

"Malts
Caramelized malts, Munich, Pilsner"


@herrburgess have you tried the Sierra Nevada collab. yet? If so, what are your thoughts?

 

haven't had it yet. may try and find some today. need to get out of the brewery more....

 

Two more data points for the discussion of Vienna Lager.

The first is Andreas Krennmair's blog post about historic Vienna Lager:
https://dafteejit.com/2018/11/decoding-the-colour-of-historic-vienna-lager/

"To convert the 6.3 reading to the Stammer colour value, we simply calculate 100 / 6.3 = 15.87, and look up the corresponding Lovibond value in the chart, which is about 4.6 to 4.7. In modern units, this is equivalent to 5.5-5.6 SRM, or 10.8-11 EBC.

So there we have it, the colour of historic Vienna Lager. It’s paler than the usual beer style guidelines will say about Vienna Lager, but it fits what I’ve been saying for quite a while, that historic Vienna Lager was most likely paler than its modern versions, and that the usual beer style guidelines don’t capture the historic examples."

The second is this circa 1906 chart of German, Austrian, and English beers that shows the color, correct serving container and size, %alcohol and %extract:


#3 (in the wine glass) is Dreher's Wiener Märzenbier. There is an accompanying chart that describes each beer in more detail. This beer has a starting gravity (Stammwürze) of 14.53% and 4.35% alcohol (I believe that is by weight, not volume) and is described as "kräftiges bitter" and "voll." Compare this to #2 which is Pilsner Urquell, which has a Stammwürze of 11.99% and 3.61% alcohol. The Wiener Märzenbier is one of the strongest lagers on the chart. Bass Pale Ale (#13, directly below it) has a similar starting gravity of 14.96 but 5.2% alcohol, so much better attenuation.

 

Good points. Here are a couple more in the form of letters from Carl Jacobsen and JC Jacobsen (sadly no longer available online).

From Carl in 1868 (after visiting both Dreher at Klein Schwechater and Sedlmayr in Munich):

"The Munich beer is a bit darker than the Viennesse's Märzen. (The export beer, which you have seen in Copenhagen) but the difference is only minor. It has apparently been darker in the past. No roasted malt what so ever was used for it."

From JC in the same year replying to Carl's letter:
"Sedelmayr's malting has changed since my time I see. At that time it only lasted for five days and the sprouts only became half the lenght of the kernel. He "dried off" at a high temperature, but not as high as now and yet the beer was pretty brown."

From JC after visiting Dreher's brewery in Steinbruch, Pest (Budapest) (date unknown but he died in 1887, and according to the Carlsberg website when it was up it was believed to stem from a Europe wide journey in the 1880s):
"There they brewed Kronen Bier, bitter, like Pilsener 12½% Balling, regular lagerbier 13%, Märzen 14% and double Märzen 15%, a splendidly fine beer, same color as mine but finer in flavor, 4 months old. The hops for it was however a mixture of Saazer, Anscher and Styrian. The wort was not cooked too long with the hops."

"The kilns after the old Bavarian model. Smoke pipes below the plates. For the pale Kronen- and lagerbier the malt is dried off at c 45 C between the plates for the other beer types at 85 à 90 C. "

Below is an advertisement for Dreher's Steinbruch brewery, date unknown.



Here's some excerpts from an article from "Der Bayerische Bierbrauer from 1871 written by a student of Weihenstephan (who practised at breweries in both Vienna and Pest for "several years") who has this to say about "The Vienna brewing method. In particular that followed by Mr Dreher in Steinbruch at Pest.":

Note the drastically lower final temperature used for lagerbier between this excerpt and JC Jacobsen's letter (the unknown date of that letter complicates things).

There's alot to untangle here and quite a bit of complexity, but as long as we acknowledge the Austrian Lager and Märzen beer as two distinct types, and allow for a spectrum of color for both types (and do not simply move in the opposite direction and claim that they were all golden/dark golden colored as opposed to reddish brown or golden brown), I think we are in a better position to understand the Vienna type.

My interpretation would be then that the lagerbier would have tended to be paler colored than the Märzen, so that one might have found a lagerbier in a golden or dark golden color, with the same brewery's Märzenbier perhaps approaching a golden brown instead (still somewhat paler than the brown Munich beers, who may have shifted in color as well over time by the use or non use of roasted malt, farbmalz). Over time changes to both styles and their popularity has obviously resulted in the golden colored Austrian Märzenbiere of today, though when and how exactly that this process took place is at this point an unknown.

 

I wonder if the paling of the Vienna Lager was in order to remain competitive with Pilsner, which also had a huge market in Vienna thanks to the Habsburg Empire.

Either way, if it isn’t color that was a historical defining aspect of the style, what aspects did make Vienna unique from Pilsner?

 

It was an intermediary type and so it shared many aspects of both Munich and Pilsener lager beer. Based on my readings I would argue that it was higher gravity than the Pilsener (13-14% for the Austrian Lagerbier instead of around 12% for the Pilsener/Bohemian lager), less pale due to the malt and slightly less attenuated. If Austrian beer experienced a similar decrease in hopping rate as the Bavarian beer did during the latter half of the 1800s (due to the introduction of ice cellars and later artificial refridgeration, and year round brewing resulting in the elimination of the need to treat the lager beer significantly different from the schenkbier) then the balance of flavors would have shifted increasingly towards the malt in the case of the Austrian Lagerbier.

I have not yet come across an indication that the Bohemian lager beers experienced this kind of reduction in hops in the same time period (latter half of the 1800s), though I am certain such a process has taken place during the 1900s, and so this would have increased the percieved difference in hopping between it and the Vienna and Munich lager beer I imagine. So the OG, color and malt to hop balance would be the differences between the two types afaik.

 

That chart is amazingly brilliant, but I don't have the foggiest idea how #10 was supposed to work from a functional standpoint

I can't zoom in enough to read the labels. What was that called?

 

One uses Vienna malts and the other Pilsner malts? (I’m saying this semi-tongue-in-cheek)

It’s for a Berliner Weiss, and the glass is called a “Molle” according to Michael Jackson.

This chart was discussed before and @steveh filled us in with that information.

 

That’s a Berliner Weiss. There was a discussion about it in this thread.

 

I remember the previous discussion, but I don't think I can take credit for identifying that vessel.

 

I'll still give you credit.

 

Okay, I'll take credit for secondary research via Jackson. But to be clear, Jackson calls that "Molle" a glass akin to an Old Fashioned glass, and the "champagne saucer" I mention is his definition of the schooner-like glass most often used for Berliner Weiß. Clear as New England IPA, right?

 

Digging Löwenbräu this year, since the end of August (canned 08-20).

 

Just to let you know, Corey, that I picked up the Paulaner amber this year specifically because of this post. I'm into my first glass right now, and it's wonderful! Probably not at their 90s level, which was exemplary, but pretty fucking close, and still a damn fine beer. I would have passed it by otherwise, too, so thank a lot for the heads up!

 

Also, this discussion on Vienna lager puts new light I think on Hantke's description of American lager beer around the turn of the century.

When I first read the book I still had the conception of Vienna lager as having been reddish or golden brown, not golden or dark golden in color. So his assertion that the American Pilsener was "generally similar" to the lager beers was hard to square with that preconception. But rereading this part now makes me interpret it differently, it now makes sense. Especially if one keeps the Blatz Wiener in mind whilst reading it.

I tried to flesh out the description by Hantke with the help from his and some other material on American beer in this post (as far as typical original gravities and hopping rate goes).

Additionally the excerpts below from his book on the malts used and produced in the US is of interest here.

 

Patrik, you mentioned/quoted:

"American beer of Munich character", which in color and malt flavor, as well as aroma is similar to the original Münchener, but in fullness and other properties is different from those."

How were the American Münchener beers brewed? What was the grain bill of these beers?

Cheers!

 

Going to bump this thread slightly since its actually Oktoberfect in a few hours (or tomorrow in America) with a blind tasting myself. There were only 3 imports I wanted to use, but I also figured I'd throw in whatever (mostly local) American versions I had.


So a blind tasting of 7 different beers in 8 glasses. Let's see if I rank the duplicate both 2nd and 8th or some shit. Note, setting this up took away from judging head in any reasonable way.

Beer #1: very light haze, sweet bread nose, malty with a light mineral note - pretty tasty
Beer #2: about same color, little more copper and maybe just a little more haze, more aggressive nose with some bite, much smoother feel and taste - I'd guess this was an import
Beer #3: darker copper, more mineral notes in nose, light skunk on taste, little more fruity than others - another guess at an import
Beer #4: in between the previous in color, nose light, taste fairly neutral, doesn't stand out in anything, but isn't out of line, either
Beer #5: another guess at an import (and I think I know which). Similar to the first in appearance, there's a mineral and alcohol-like bite here like it was a can beer (though all the imports were from a bottle). Very smooth but a little more fruity (grape/white raisin) than the others
Beer #6:more copper (towards #3), but a maybe slightly sweet version of #4 - though it's the closest I've had to thinking this is a duplicate.
Beer #7: similar to beer #3... duplicate confidence dwindling. Tasting them side-by-side, they seem close to the same, but not exactly. I'm going to claim palate fatigue if they're the same, but this seems a little more bready.
Beer #8: more in line with #6 and #4, but with a little more character overall

So, guesses:

1. American
2. Although I said I'd guess import initially, after all 8 - American, prefer #1
   
3. Stick with import - better enjoyment than #1 barely
4. Smoother version of #3, really on fence as to what matters more to me, I'm going #3 and think this is American
   
5. Import - on par with #3, based purely on taste now, I am wondering if this and 3 might be the same (color seems to still favor my original thoughts of #4 and #6)
6. Admittedly, it's getting even harder to tell now... #5 seems a tad smoother, and doing a mix of the options so far, #3 moves on
   
7. Seems similar to the leader (3), but still seems different and smoother. I like #3 a little better - American
   
8. Smoother, with a little more body that I seem to have characterized as, well, "character" above. American

So, knowing this whole process is going to make me look like an idiot, here's the reveal:

1. Fair Winds
2. Solace
3. Spaten
4. Port City
5. Hofbrau
6. Port City
7. Ayinger -- *this is the biggest surprise
   
8. Victory

So, fun thoughts here:

• 8 samples == a good amount of beer
• imports still have "something about them" that probably can be distinguished, likely at least influences by location (location, location)
• imports seemed "lighter / more clean" - and US brews seemed "smoother" likely due to their slightly precepitble higher sweetness
• I was truly debating what I enjoyed most (I've enjoyed all these except maybe Victory's in the past), and think I lean more towards the imports

Eh - anyone who read this far, kudos to you and an extra Cheers!! I always get something interesting from these experiments, and like others who have posted here, encourage all to do their own experiments.

Cheers!!

P.S. the GF said she liked 1 the least, and that 5 and 7 weren't worth a second try by her. Then she said, "I don't love any of them" - as they're not her style. So she ended at 2 and 8 as her favorites (pretty much ignoring style).

 

Sorry, giving the mods permission to alter my post to add this simple image after my first paragraph and delete this post. If that doesn’t happen, here’s the challengers;