Factors that affect bubble size and feel

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by UristMcBrewer, Oct 22, 2019.

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  1. UristMcBrewer

    UristMcBrewer Zealot (585) Oct 5, 2019 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Some background: some friends and I recently brewed an English-style porter from a recipe using malt extract with some stepped grains (crystal malts). Overall we are inexperienced. Today was the day it was done bottle conditioning so I had two of them. The first had pretty large bubbles leading to a less smooth feel that I associate with a porter. The second one had smaller sized bubbles. I did store these two bottles in different locations; the difference being just light (to my knowledge). What are the factors that determine bubble size and on that note, how the head is formed and retained. My guess is that proteins concentration and composition play a big role. As a homebrewer, what is the best way to control these factors for optimum carbonation given a certain grain bill?
     
  2. riptorn

    riptorn Pooh-Bah (1,776) Apr 26, 2018 Georgia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Inconsistent carbonation can be a result of the priming solution not being thoroughly mixed in the entire volume of the beer. If you used carb drops or sugar cubes, then something else is in play.

    What leads you to believe it was done conditioning?
    Which bottle had the bigger bubbles; the one in the dark or the one in the light (and was it direct sunlight)?
     
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  3. Push_the_limits

    Push_the_limits Initiate (0) Feb 8, 2018 Antarctica

    This is in addition to riptorn's post. I think drinking and comparing one beer to the next is difficult especially if the beer is heavy, sweet, high in alcohol, or paired with food. These factors can skew perception. But it sounds like one was infected within the bottle (effect is over-carbonation) or maybe it was just warmer. Did you use a a saison yeast or maybe risked using a used bottle?

    Head in this case would probably be determined by the rate of transition of dissolved CO2 to gaseous. If it happens too fast without enough head-supporting molecules, it will fall apart.
     
    #3 Push_the_limits, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    You wrote "Today was the day it was done bottle conditioning." Instructions to beginner homebrewers are overly precise on scheduling your brewing activities: They often say things like "bottle your beer on the 7th day" or "your beer will be ready to drink in 2 weeks." These are average times. Your beer is done carbonating when there is no more simple sugar left for yeast to ferment, not when your homebrew kit instructions tell you it done. With that thought in mind, it sounds like one of your bottles was closer to being finished than the other.

    Two key factors in play are how much sugar is present and what rate of sugar consumption took place in the bottle.

    Rate of consumption. You said your bottles were in different places, so differences in temperature throughout the bottle period could contribute to different rates of consumption as yeast are sensitive to temperature. Light could have an influence here as there may be a radiant heating effect. Or one area is draftier or otherwise colder than the other.

    How much sugar: I don't know how you primed your beer, but I think some ways are less prone to uneven distributions of sugar than others. When I bottled, the method I settled in on for consistency involved dissolving the sugar first in a cup or two of boiling water. I added this to a bottling bucket as I was filling the bucket from the fermenter. Once full, I gave it a few gentle swirls and allowed about 10 minutes for the solution to equilibrate. Then I bottled. If the sugar is not dissolved or not given time to thoroughly mix with the beer, the some bottles of beer can get more sugar than others. My first few batches suffered from sugar inconsistency because I added table sugar to the bottles with a measuring spoon. This approach was highly inconsistent as it is volume-based, not mass-based, and prone to measurement error. I never used carb tabs but I think there was a post some time ago where someone evaluated how consistent their mass was. I don't recall if it was alarmingly inconsistent.

    A completely different possibility is that one of your bottles was less clean than you want it, and some residue in the bottle diminished the head. If this is the case, perhaps an even bigger concern is that the residue contained bacteria or wild yeast that will take hold of those bottles and cause an infection. A potential indicator of bottle infection is that your bottle never seems to stop foaming and the beers gush when you pour.

    You are right that proteins play a role in bubble formation. There is a lot of information available about things the promote the proteins that lead to good head and things that discourage it. Here is a 5-part blog post on the topic: https://beerandwinejournal.com/?s=foam
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Proteins, of the right size, are indeed foam positive.

    Ack. "Given a certain grain bill" limits you somewhat, because grain choices can be a significant factor. But, "given a certain grain bill" here are a few things that will improve foam retention.

    - High mash temps (something you can't control with extract recipes)
    - Minimize splashing of the wort after the boil. The proteins that support foam are "one and done." For example, that foam that forms in the fermenter as you're pouring wort into it is foam that your beer will not have.
    - Give the beer plenty of time for carbonation. Foam retention (and the fine-ness of the foam) generally improve over time.
    - Use more hops. Certain hop compounds are foam positive.
    - Keep most of the kettle trub out of the fermenter. (Fatty acids are bad for foam.)
    - As already mentioned, clean glassware helps.
    - Keep detergents, oils, and fats away from your equipment and beer.
     
  6. UristMcBrewer

    UristMcBrewer Zealot (585) Oct 5, 2019 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Basically the recipe said to let it condition for 2 weeks, which I did. 2 weeks should be enough for the yeast to fully metabolize to priming sugar, right?
    The dark-stored one had bigger bubbles, it was stored in a closet. The other bottles were stored in a room in the same house. The room had an incandescent light-bulb. They weren't even directly exposed to light either. I tried to minimize any light exposure just to be on the safe side.

    If the temperature was different between the two locations, it was minimal to the point of not being able to feel a difference. But after reading how you mix in your priming sugar, I think that may be the cause. We did not mix ours as thoroughly. We did use the method of dissolving dextrose in water on the stove and adding it to the beer. But we added it to bottling bucket after it was filled with beer. We stirred it in and gave it some time to equilibrate, but not 10 minutes.

    Thanks for the help everyone.
     
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  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Maybe. It depends on...
    - temperature
    - yeast health
    - amount of yeast cells in the bottled beer
    - amount of sugar
    - ABV of beer
    - probably something I'm not thinking of

    Kit instructions suck.
     
  8. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Agree.

    OP, you're new at this and wouldn't have known any other way to brew the beer, so lessons are sometimes learned the hard way. However, you do have beer, so that's not all bad. Take the time to read John Palmer's book HowToBrew.com. It's free to read online (1st edition) but doesn't cost all that much to buy online or in most good bookstores (4th edition) so that you have something in which you can highlight, write notes, etc. It will cause you to realize why kit instructions aren't very good.
     
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  9. riptorn

    riptorn Pooh-Bah (1,776) Apr 26, 2018 Georgia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    ^ ^ ^ this ^ ^ ^

    If you have friends that want to get into brewing, pass along that tidbit and point them to this forum....it contains a virtual fountain of knowledge
     
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  10. UristMcBrewer

    UristMcBrewer Zealot (585) Oct 5, 2019 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    To be frank I'm not that surprised lol.
    I have started reading about the whole process a bit more while it was ferment. I should be able to go into the next beer with a bit more knowledge.
     
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  11. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    @UristMcBrewer 2 weeks usually got me close to full carbonation, but I think I usually detected a difference between 2 and 3 weeks, and was less likely to detect a difference between 3 and 4.

    To be honest, your approach to adding the priming sugar sounds very reasonable. Maybe my 10 minute wait helps or maybe I’m paranoid?

    @VikeMan mentioned temperature and that is one of the controls I started to use when bottle conditioning. For the 3 week period after priming, my bottles were stored at room temp 68 degrees, then moved to my cellar. This was an improvement over my initial tries, where bottles were moved to cellar temps immediately after capping. But I doubt cold bottles are your problem in FL.
     
  12. skleice

    skleice Maven (1,271) Aug 6, 2015 Connecticut

     
  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If I were not oxygenating with pure O2, I would at least splash/shake the wort to get some O2 into it, i.e. I personally would prioritize a healthy fermentation over a bit of foam protein preservation.
     
  14. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    I already know your problem is you didn't mix in your solution. You put it on top and gave it a quick swirly.
    The main factor that determines bubble size is consistent carbonation. As such. You way over thought what is actually a simple fix. Here's the answer.
    To control your bottle conditioned carbonation to the exact volume you want. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS put your sugar charge / solution in BEFORE you rack into the bottling bucket, and let the racking over take care of mixing it. I routinely shoot for 2.6 to 2.7 vols, so if I were to experience what you have. I'd have bottle bombs. Put that sugar in BEFORE racking over.
    You are also trying to engage in two very different discussion when you start mentioning head retention.
    First discussion is c02 vols. BJCP guidelines should include recommended co2 vols for each style. Use those. That said. Put that solution in BEFORE racking.
     
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  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Perhaps they should. They don't.
     
  16. warchez

    warchez Zealot (545) Oct 19, 2004 Massachusetts

    The first beer was poured into a dry empty glass, then your second was poured into the same used glass? That can effect carbonation presentation a bit too depending on how clean/pristine your glassware is. A 'dirty' glass will have larger bubbles. A "beer clean" glass (or even water rinsed 'dirty') glass will have tighter bubbles in my experience.

    The same can be said for how clean the bottles were to begin with.

    You won't understand your inconsistency in carbonation/bottling until you're a few more bottles in as well.
     
  17. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (0) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    I guess I've always wondered this about my O2 stone I use and how hard it should be bubbling. I just got it so I'm still playing but the last batch I opened it pretty far which created a lot of bubbles and foam. How aggressive should I get with that?
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    What I do is set (decrease) the O2 pressure to minimize foaming, and increase the time accordingly.
     
  19. UristMcBrewer

    UristMcBrewer Zealot (585) Oct 5, 2019 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    I have tried some more bottles. The difference doesn't seem as pronounced when compared to the difference between the first two. Mixing the priming sugar by putting it in the bottling bucket does make a lot of sense and I will be ding that next time.
     
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Well, a couple more days have passed. If temperature was the main variable, the carbonation levels should continue to converge.

    I know you didn't "feel" a difference in temps between the two locations, but you didn't actually measure the temps, and even a couple of degrees could make a difference in carbonation time.
     
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