Gruits?

Most of the beers being discussed in this thread aren't gruit beers. The BeerAdvocate style listing here called "Scottish Gruit / Ancient Herbed Ale" is misleading people. Gruit beers weren't Scottish (the style description here oddly points this out), and the slash indicates that people can dump any "ancient" ale into the category. Williams Bros. do not make any gruit beers and don't claim to. Heather ale is a heather ale. Dogfish Head doesn't call Midas Touch a gruit. It's a beer/wine/mead hybrid with saffron inspired by drinking vessels found in Turkey that's won awards at GABF as a "honey beer." It is not a gruit beer in the slightest. Going beyond that, if a hypothetical local brewer in Montana makes a small batch of beer with some random foraged plants and no hops, it's also not a gruit beer. The horse and buggy was popular before mass-produced cars, but that doesn't make every mode of transportation before the car a "horse and buggy."

 

You had me until this part. Why wouldn't this one be considered a gruit? I thought that was exactly what the definition was - a beer made with some combo of herbs/plants in place of hops for bittering. I'm sure you're right, I just don't understand why.

My only real experience with gruit is at Earth Eagle in New Hampshire which used to make a bunch of them and still makes a few (at least by the definition I understood).

Thanks for any further info.

 

The brewery I bartend at (The Brewers Collective) actually specializes in gruits and all I’ve really got is that I’ve liked most of them and disliked a few of them. We brewed one with smoked sage and cheese pumpkin I loved. We have another one with Heather flowers and rye I don’t particularly care for.

I’m really happy though to work for a bunch of guys who’d rather brew a gruit than an IPA for sure, even though I’m guilty of drinking IPAs often.

 

"I'm sure you're right" - That's your first mistake.
With some beer types I see things much looser than other people, and I'm the opposite way with some other types. You can chalk it up to just my personality. You'll see people say that a gruit is a beer without hops (as @ForagedBudLite mentioned above). If thats' a valid approach, then it's got to be the loosest style parameter of all time. I guess we can also start to call every beer made with hops an IPA . Legally, commercial beer essentially needs to have hops as far as I know (including packaged beer labeled "gruit"), so the term isn't even being used accordingly there. What if the beer has no hops... or herbs, spices, or any other plant product used for bittering?

Gruit is actually the word for the historical herbal mixture rather than the beverage. A gruit beer was made with gruit. If a brewer in Montana (to continue my silly image) put lime rind, chia, and sassafras bark in a beer without hops and called it a gruit, I wouldn't think of it as a gruit beer personally... because that beer wouldn't resemble a gruit beer. The brewer might say, "Why are you being so specific with the word gruit?" But the brewer has got it backwards - he's the one choosing to use the specific word for no logical reason. Instead of just considering his beer a spiced beer or a herb beer, he's naming it after the historical gruit herb mixture consisting of bog myrtle and yarrow used in the Middle Ages around the area of modern Germany... even though there's actually no connection to that type of beer. There's absolutely no reason why a modern brewer should select that term from another culture and from history for a beer that doesn't come close to resembling the thing being referenced. If someone is trying to reasonably recreate a gruit beer that's different. Otherwise, they should come up with their own word. Sorry for rambling.

 

Well.... it's more complicated than that (as if the subject needed more complication).

In the US, for a "malt beverage" (their legal catch-all term for a beer) brewed here to fall under the labeling and other regulations of the TTB it must contain hops - "7½ pounds of hops (or the equivalent thereof in hop extracts or hop oils) per 100 barrels" [Ruling 2008-3 below]. So, that's 0.075 lb for 1 barrel, or 1.2 oz. for 31 gallons of beer (check my math!). Tiny amount, even by AAL macro beer standards, and obviously there's no requirement about when or the length of time they're added, their strength or freshness, etc.

But "beer" brewed in the US without any hops can still be made, but it then falls under the different and more involved FDA food label standards. (Same for "beer" brewed without the minimum or any barley malt *). Most US brewers of "Gruit-ish" beers that are packaged and shipped out of state have apparently chosen to go the simply route of just adding that tiny amount of hops required by the TTB (sticking with "the devil they know" for labeling) AND whatever herbs and spices they want.

Even more complexity (or maybe a better explanation than above?) at:
TTB Ruling 2008-3 - Classification of Brewed Products as “Beer” Under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and as “Malt Beverages” Under the Federal Alcohol Administration Act

FDA - Labeling of Certain Beers Subject to the Labeling Jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration Guidance for Industry

* Don't know of a hopless "beer" with a FDA label, but here's examples of DFH's and (? Forgot) barley-maltless beer:

 

That makes total sense. So, to which larger taxonomic group(s) would you assign non hop beers that don't contain a traditional gruit mixture of herbs?

And would you expect your distinction, correct as it is, to make things easier,or more difficult, for consumers who wish to buy a beer without hops, but don't know about and/or don't care about the ancient recipe for gruit, and whose only reference for a beer without hops is by looking for gruits?

Sorry for the questions. You can chalk it up to my personality.

 

I don't expect people to agree with me. I'm OK with "agreeing to disagree" with the entire beer geek community.

@cavedave - Calling a beer a "gruit" does not make things easier for a consumer who does not know about gruit beer. It's the opposite. If the brewer said this is a sage beer, a herb beer, a mint beer, a spiced beer, a field beer, or (to use examples of such beers mentioned in this thread) a rye beer, a pumpkin beer... it would be easier for the consumer. If a brewer is making a beer without hops and a bunch of odd ingredients that can encompass anything grown, then the label or chalkboard simply needs to state what's in the darn beer. It's not about taxonomy (or expanding taxonomy). If a consumer is actually "looking for gruits" then they are already in the weeds (so to speak ). (BTW - I'm wishing you well man!)

@Snowcrash000 - I understand why you are making that argument, but I do not believe that this is a case of style evolution akin to that of IPA. The IPA style has evolved over the years like any other beer style. I bet that gruit beers evolved over the years in the Middle Ages and had regional differences as well (I mean that beyond the notion of a gruiter having their own recipe). That's not the same as plucking a name out of a point in history and doing whatever you want with it due to there being no direct evolutionary connection. I don't believe that an IPA today needs to be made with the exact same malt varieties as used in England in the 18th century, BUT I am also not someone who subscribes to the idea that a hoppy black beer is an IPA despite what brewers put on the bottle. If beer evolution can be seen as a thread over the years, then there are cases when the thread snaps because it can't support the weight. For me, the black IPA is such a case. Ditto for a pumpkin gruit.

 

I'm agnostic on the naming convention, but I'm very pleased to have learned that "gruit" actually referred to a particular spice blend at a particular point in time. Thanks!

You raised my interest to poke around a little, and it appears there is actually such a thing as "International Gruit Day". Here is their description of gruits on the main page, which sounds like they acknowledge both the history and their modern attempt at reviving the tradition with a wider array of ingredients, so maybe everyone's happy?

https://www.gruitday.com/what-is-gruit-ale

"Many centuries ago (pre-1000 CE) most beers in Europe were brewed without the use of hops. Instead bitterness was provided by a mixture called gruit (German for “herb”), a secretive and expensive blend of herbs and spices, sold only to brewers by the local “gruit right” holder. Brewing with gruit was mandatory, as enforced by the church and the state. The typical gruit mixture contained a variety of plants and herbs – bog myrtle and yarrow were almost always used – as well as whichever culinary seasonings were available – including cinnamon, ginger, aniseed, juniper and nutmeg. However, many cities considered free of church control began brewing with hops, thanks to their cheaper price, unique aromas and preservation qualities. Eventually, by the year 1600, brewing with hops would become the norm, and brewing with gruit eventually faded into obscurity, especially following the Bavarian Purity Act of 1516, which ordered that only hops were to be used to spice beer. Today this style of beer is known as gruit ale, and luckily craft brewers have rediscovered this ancient form of brewing, resulting in a gruit ale renaissance.

Craft brewing is based on the notion that beer should not be limited by the conventional norm – that beer should be about discovery and experimentation, and gruit ales are one of the best examples of this pioneering spirit.

On February 1, 2019, craft brewers from all over will raise a glass of their chosen gruit while using the hashtag #GruitDay on social media to promote awareness of this ancient beer style."

 

I think that's a good point of view. One problem with it though is that we're probably failing at it in too many places. Something I was trying to communicate with @Snowcrash000 but doing it poorly was that we'd be better off considering gruit beer a historical beverage rather than a blanket name for a totally different expression. A product of using the term loosely is that we're also applying it to any brewer attempting to do a modern take on a so-called "ancient ale." Look at this thread. If we are claiming that Midas Touch is a gruit (and this thread certainly is), despite the fact that the inspiration for it was evidence of a beverage from a totally different period in history, then we've totally screwed up. The Midas Touch scenario isn't about the evolution of a beer style or name, it's simply painting the wrong picture. That's where we're at.

That's just the evolution of language. (I kid) I agree with you of course, but perhaps this should make you more sympathetic to my point of view.
Here's a quote from Martyn Cornell if it provides anything interesting:

 

Dr. Patrick McGovern's "Ancient Brews" has the DFH series of beers transcribed for a Homebrew 5 gallon batch. The recipes include hops, usually .2 oz. of Simcoe. That's not much, but it scales down from the TTB requirements.

 

@zid, to me it seems totally appropriate to call most hop free beers "gruits" based on the historical use of the term. There wasn't a specific proscribed herb blend used universally and it's reasonable to suspect that the relative uniformity had more to do with availability of herbs in medieval central Europe as opposed to some strict stylistic parameters. I also agree that any brewery selling a gruit should make very clear the herbs involved

 

I had a Dunes from Solarc Brewing last weekend, which is listed as retired which it isn't, containing sage, wormwood, mugwort, lemongrass and turmeric. It had an interestingly pleasant taste that I'd have again if available (my daughter in Los Angeles sent it to me as a birthday present).

 

This is a serious question and not meant to be rude: Would you call sake or chicha types of gruit?

 

of course not, neither of those are even beer (although I understand that BA wrote an article about chicha and some consider it beer). Both have names already and are distinct beverage styles of their own.
What I understand to be at issue here is, would we call a beverage made with malted barley, no hops, and some mix of herbs a 'gruit' or would we only call it a 'gruit' if it is made with malted barely and a specific mix of herbs? I would go with the former option

 

Over the weekend, I went to BS Brewing near Seguin, TX for their Winterfest. As part of this event, they had brewed a small keg of Rosemary Juniper Acient Ale brewed with no hops and served warm. It was very flavorful, rustic and enjoyable. I am wondering about other BA’s experience with fresh ancient ales and what breweries brew them. Thanks!