Pre-Prohibition Lagers

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by ZAP, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. ZAP

    ZAP Grand Pooh-Bah (4,048) Dec 1, 2001 Minnesota
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    Trying to learn more about these. Schell seems to have rebranded their Deer Brand this way describing it as "Schell’s Deer Brand was developed prior to Prohibition and has been Schell’s flagship beer ever since. Brewed from 70% barley malt, 30% corn, and our unique ‘Schell’ yeast."

    Sounds like the same beer as always but I just started noticing the "pre-prohibition" notes. So I'm guessing the pre-prohibition lagers had less adjunct than today?

    I find the Deer Brand a bit hoppier than most AAL's. Sharper might be a way to put it. Not IPA hoppy. Dryer maybe. The one that is most similar to me is Leinie Original.

    Just curious what others might know.
     
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  2. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,036) Sep 14, 2002 Wyoming
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    Using adjuncts was a pretty old thing...maybe as far back as the 1870s. Maybe started by brewers emigrating to the US from Europe, most likely from Germany.

    Still, I reckon that there were more than a few beers that were all malt back then. Expect a reply from our resident expert...
     
  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I am not 100% sure who you are referencing here but…

    Anton Schwarz immigrated to America in 1868 from the Austrian Empire. “He was educated at the University of Vienna, where he studied law for two years, and at the Polytechnicum, Prague, where he studied chemistry.” The year after he immigrated to the US he wrote a seminal article entitled “Brewing with Raw Cereals, Especially Rice” in American Brewer magazine (1869). What Anton Schwarz recognized is that by adding some adjuncts (e.g., rice, corn) to the grain bill the overall content of protein was diluted since the adjuncts contained little protein and consequently the resulting beer would not suffer from chill haze. There was also the added benefit that the beer brewed using adjuncts would have improved beer stability. This improved beer stability was a great asset since American beer consumers drank quite a bit of bottled beer. The information that Anton Schwarz provided was quite an innovation for American brewers.

    Below is how Anton Schwarz is lauded in the book American Handy-Book of the Brewing, Malting, and Auxiliary Trades by Wahl & Henius, 1902, page 711:

    “It was Anton Schwarz who first advised the employment of rice and subsequently of Indian corn, which is so abundant in this country. The stubborn perseverance with which he sought to convert conservative brewers to his ideas and finally succeed in doing and, last, not least, the discovery of suitable methods to scientifically apply them, entitles him to be called the founder of raw cereal brewing in the United States.”

    Cheers!
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I have never had the Schell's beer you are referencing so....

    Classic American Pilsner beers of the turn of the 20th Century would have varying amounts of adjunct. It could have been 30% or it could have been less.

    Another aspect that would have been different for the beers of circa 1900 would have been higher amounts of hops in all three phases: bittering, flavor and aroma. They would have been notably different from the AAL beers of today in this regard.

    Cheers!
     
  5. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Jeff, you will be reading another article in Zymurgy a couple of months from now.

    Cheers!

    P.S. I will be homebrewing my annual batch of CAP soon. I ordered the ingredients a couple of days ago.
     
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  7. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    The problem with these discussions is what exactly defines a particular "beer" (or, for that matter, "beer style" - if we're going say Pre-Pro Lager and CAP are beer styles) - and where does one draw the lines with a change of ingredients or amounts/ratios of those ingredients of a particular beer's recipe? Lots of US AAL brands date from the 1800s or pre-Pro 1900s but few would consider them (Pabst Blue Ribbon, Budweiser, Miller High Life) the "same" beer given changes in the types and forms of ingredients and the recipe.

    According to an undated but recent Schell handout (circa 2010s since it says "over 150 years" for the brewery founded in 1860) Deer Brand's ingredients are "Pale 2-row Barley, Corn, Cascade Hops". Two row malt was around in the US in pre-Pro era, mostly imported but the West Coast was growing some 2 row. But today's 2-row barleys are different strains than those available a century ago. And Schell, pretty much in the middle of the main barley growing region would have likely used the local northern mid-west grown 6-row barley, malted in Minnesota or Wisconsin. (They were still using 6-row into the 1980s even for their all-malt craft pilsner, for instance).

    Cascade hops of course weren't released until the 1970s and likely pre-Pro Deer Brand from the 19th century and then right up to the 1970s (or longer) was using whole flower dried Cluster hops, possibly with some European imports (as noted by @hopfenunmaltz). If today they're using pellets like the overwhelming majority of brewers, the weight and the final IBUs are likely different than previously even if they are trying to match the same stats.

    It's easy to show that the hops "lbs/bbl" average of US beers has gone down dramatically, but given the brewer in 1900 was using hops that were often 1 year or more old, not as well kept or preserved as today, likely using 3 or 4 times as much hops as today's standard AAL did not mean the beers were 3 or 4 times as bitter or hoppy.

    The "corn" Schell uses today is in the form of corn syrup but, beyond that, we don't know which sort of brewing corn syrup (maltose or dextrose). I'd guess the former?

    Glucose (which, as I understand it, is the same as dextrose?) was used in US adjunct lagers in the 19th century but corn grit and flakes and rice were also common and maybe used in more beers.

    And is the use of corn and corn only a necessary ingredient for Pre-Pro lagers? Or are the many rice and all-malt lagers also considered part of the styles?

    Once the form of corn in a beer recipe switches from grits to flakes or syrup, seems to me the actual ratio (in pounds or by volume) is also going to change to maintain the same OG. Just a look at the yields of common adjuncts and other materials compared to the extract of a bushel of malted barley (from Nagey's post-Repeal Beer Forumlas). There could be many different OG and FG of beers that are "70/30".

    [​IMG]
    Throw in the fact that US beers have different RDF's, the average of which has been constantly going up in the US, "70/30" doesn't really tell us much.
     
    #7 jesskidden, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  8. mynie

    mynie Grand Pooh-Bah (3,272) Jun 22, 2004 Maryland
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    Schells does a good job of brewing classic American styles so I don't mean to knock them, but "pre-prohibition" is basically an empty marketing term. Sometimes it means "all malt." Sometimes it means "based loosely on an older version of one of our current flagships." Sometimes it's brewers trying to follow a real old recipe. Sometimes it has no meaning whatsoever, it just sounds cool.
     
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  9. anfield86

    anfield86 Pooh-Bah (2,606) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
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    Upland uses Cluster hops in their Champagne Velvet recipe, per their website, which is a really nice tasting Classic American Pilsner

    https://www.uplandbeer.com/beers/champagne-velvet/
     
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  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    At a party last night there was an interesting discussion about ingredients. Two of my pro friends were talking about hops. One does historic beers, British style ales, some German lagers. His hop use will change in the next year as Liberty hops are getting hard to find. Others are too.

    Cluster and Bullion are now hard to find. I have worked with a brewpub brewer making a Ballantine IPA homage. We started out with healthy doses of Bullion, Cluster, Brewers Gold, and finished with EKG. Last year Bullion was not on the spot market. This year he couldn't find Cluster. Lots of Brewers Gold, and EKG this year. The beer is still good has its following, but I think it has lost something.

    Unless a brewery is big enough to have contracts for some of these old hops, the supply will diminish, the spot market has become a little thin.
     
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  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    I just want to point out that 6-row has been on the way out for a little while. Briess malting dropped it, they now get 2 row from Wyoming.

    Corn has displaced barley from much of the Midwest. Much of the barley is grown in Canada now.

    You probably know this, others will not.

    https://www.agmrc.org/commodities-products/grains-oilseeds/barley-profile
     
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  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yeah, there will always be debate on who is the appropriate ‘authority’ here.

    I am of the opinion that the BJCP does a good job defining what the CAP (Pre-Prohibition Lager) beer style is in their Beer Style Guidelines. An extract:

    “Historical Beer: Pre-Prohibition Lager

    Characteristic Ingredients: Six-row barley with 20% to 30% flaked maize (corn) or rice to dilute the excessive protein levels; modern versions may be all malt. Native American hops such as Clusters, traditional continental hops, or modern noble-type crosses are also appropriate. Modern American hops such as Cascade are inappropriate. Water with a high mineral content can lead to an unpleasant coarseness in flavor and harshness in aftertaste. A wide range of lager yeast character can be exhibited, although modern versions tend to be fairly clean.”

    I am able to easily purchase Rahr 6-row malt so that is what I choose to use when brewing my CAP beers.
    As far as I am concerned rice is an appropriate adjunct for brewing a CAP. I used flaked rice last year to brew my CAP and that particular batch had ‘extra’ crispness and dryness to the resulting beer.
     
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  13. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    I saw Leinie's Original for sale today and was honestly toying with a revisit of the beer I used to enjoy so often before the Micro Boom®. From the Leinie's web site:

    Classic lager brewed with pale malts and cluster hops

    We’ve been perfecting our craft since 1867 when Jacob Leinenkugel founded the Jacob Leinenkugel Brewing Company. Over 150 years, we’re still proudly brewing our award-winning Leinenkugel’s Original, a classic American Pilsner, just as we did in 1867.

    Thoughts, opinions, BS calls? :wink:
     
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  14. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,036) Sep 14, 2002 Wyoming
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    C'est ne pas possible!

    Btw, I also enjoyed that beer in the rather distant past.
     
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  15. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    1977 (Quoting brewmaster John Cooney): "Barley Malt, augmented by corn grits, hops from Yakima Valley. * "
    Bill Leinenkugel: "We feel that they (Yakima Valley hops) are better than imported hops, because the flavor is more uniform, year to year."

    Current MillerCoors "Brand Nutritional Data" pdf: "Barley Malt, Corn, Corn Syrup (Maltose – not High-Fructose Corn Syrup), Yeast, Hops"

    * Most likely Clusters, which as oft noted made up the majority of the US hop crop. It was probably more common for US brewers to ID US hops by geography for that reason (and there was likely a difference in flavor - "terroir" and all that). For instance, in the '60s Rainier Brewing Co ads noted they used both "Yakima Valley" and "Sacramento Valley" hops. Yakima Valley's share of the US hop crop in the late '70s would have been around 3/4.
     
    #15 jesskidden, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  16. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    Any reliable sources from 1867 (at least on Leinie's)?
     
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  17. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    Not a lot. They did their own malting "malted in accordance with the best German methods" and used hops that were "the best money can procure". And, you know, pure spring water. In 1899 had a line up of "Genuine Export" "Pale Export" "Select" and "Porter".

    They were open fermenting in wood into the 1950s (not that uncommon, but about to be).

    What is interesting is that after Repeal the beer was commonly labeled Leinenkugel's Chippewa Pride Beer but at some point, I think in the early 1970s, they became two different brands, Leinenkugel's and (I think?) the cheaper Chippewa Pride. In the late 70s the brewery described Chippewa Pride as "lighter and slightly lower in calories and alcohol" than Leinenkugel's.
     
    #17 jesskidden, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  18. WesMantooth

    WesMantooth Grand Pooh-Bah (4,844) Jan 8, 2014 Ohio
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    I recall having a “pre” lager at Coors about 10 yrs or so ago. I believe it ended up being packaged but only distro was Colorado. It was good. A different kind of sweet, with a decent bitterness.
     
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  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Was that Batch 19?

    That beer was discontinued but apparently is back as a Colorado only beer:

    “Batch 19 is back.

    After spending four years on ice, the pre-Prohibition style lager based on a historic recipe unearthed in the basement of the Golden brewery is now available in select bars and restaurants in Colorado.”

    https://www.millercoorsblog.com/news/batch-19-back-exclusively-colorado

    Cheers!
     
  20. WesMantooth

    WesMantooth Grand Pooh-Bah (4,844) Jan 8, 2014 Ohio
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    Yeah. That’s it.
     
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