Trade Value Thread (2020)

How many bottles of LPK have you received in trades @SierraNevallagash ?

 

None, this will be the first. It will also likely be LPG or LPF instead, because I already have a Cantillon Kriek.

 

Was your previous post speaking about trading for those bottles you listed $4$ generally, and not trading LPK for those bottles?

Also if you're equating regular Cantillon Kriek to LPK, there's the fundamental disconnect in all your hand wringing over secondary/trade values. Regular Kriek can be obtained fairly easily in a wide variety of ways across the US. LPK is very rare, (it's been 3? years since they actually produced it), and when it is available stateside, it's usually at a very high cost or through a lottery. And that's just in the rare case you can actually obtain it through a brick and mortar bottle shop or store. Not even considering the hassle of trading or buying internationally.

So when presented with the opportunity to get an LPK and you pass because you have regular Cantillon Kriek, you're already in a place that you will never really ever see eye to eye with most others wrapped up in this whole hobby. And that's fine, but there's really no place here for someone like that to try to change the whole logic behind limited beer trading.

If you think someone should trade an LPK for some local stuff that's "just as good," well you can go ahead and lead by example, but I have a feeling that if you were lucky enough to obtain two bottles of LPK, there'd be no way you would trade your extra bottle in such a charitable way.

Most people that go through that kind of trouble to obtain something, anything--beer or any other commodity--would prefer to receive something in return that was of comparable difficulty to obtain, or of equal perceived value in that regard. If you expect someone to drive to Iowa, stand outside in the snow for hours to buy one bottle of beer for $100, and trade that $4$ for a few cases of easily obtainable hops or some local BA coffee stout that no one else has heard of...that's just unrealistic and almost disrespectful towards that person. Especially considering they could simply take the time and foot the bill to go wherever your local market is to obtain that beer if they really wanted it that badly, and without the line.

Ultimately, when I run into these kinds of posts, it's usually when a person that has been unsuccessful in obtaining what they're looking for just wishes people would give them an easier time getting it. Hey, we all wish that. Sometimes we get lucky. Or sometimes we make great friends in our beer odysseys across the country. But most of the time we need to put in commensurate work to get the really limited stuff.

 

I get what you're saying, but I actually pretty frequently trade away bottles I've never tried before. For me, there are a handful of good reasons.

One is the size/format of the bottles. I prefer 500 ml or smaller bottles, but all the high-demand bottles I have access to in MN are 750 ml (this is actually by law...breweries can only package in 12 oz, 750 ml, or 64 oz formats, so all the limited release stuff gets packaged in 750 ml). So I'll often rather trade my 750 ml bottles for one or more smaller ones.

Another is the value of the bottles. A while back I traded for some bottles that then shot up in value. As much as I wanted to try them, I also felt like I couldn't pass up the opportunity to trade them up for a rare bottle of whiskey that I'll likely not have another chance to trade for again. More often, though, I'd rather trade "down". If I have a bottle that I know could land me 2+ other bottles I really want, I'll normally prefer to go that route. So I'd be inclined to trade something I've never tried if it'll get me multiple other bottles I haven't tried.

The last is the style of the beer itself. I tend to prefer stouts with no/few adjuncts. I'm also not a huge fan of coconut in particular, but so many recent stouts are loaded up with coconut (including much of the stuff that Forager and Barrel Theory make, which are the breweries I'm most able to access). So I'll often purchase the heavily adjuncted stouts from these breweries, knowing that they're not my favorite but that I can use them to trade for other things I want.

 

While I agree with a lot of your points, I think there's an important distinction between two types of $4$ trades: 1) $4$ of similar rarity; and 2) $4$ with little concern of rarity. So, breaking these down.

1) $4$ of similar rarity: This is a great way to trade. It's fair, and what a good trade should strive to be. Frankly, if I see someone posting a trade where they are asking for the other side to go way over $4$, 9 out of 10 times it's a crap trade. However, if someone wants to post a trade where they are cool going over $4$ on their own side, I'm totally cool with that, since in my mind they're being generous.

2) $4$ with little concern of rarity: I just don't see this happening too often, especially from posts on the BA trade forums. People don't want sell themselves short. But there's another reason this doesn't happen too often; people don't want to feel like they're being taken advantage of. Imagine you trade your rare beer $4$ with some not-so-rare beers, then you see the next day that same bottle up for trade again. That person had used your generosity simply as a stepping stone to get a bigger fish. Or even worse, imagine if that person is reselling that beer you traded them for a "great deal." I think this is one of the driving reasons that $4$ with little concern of rarity trades are uncommon, and when they do happen, are with repeat traders and people that already have established a high degree of trust.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in my original remark (although I did address this moments later). Of course I don't expect most traders to trade a "rare" or "hyped" beer at $4$ for just any old beer. People want something that is in demand, that has some degree of value - not necessarily secondary. Beer that is only available at the brewery, or at least in an extremely limited market, beer that most people recognise the name of, beer that has a good reputation, etc... I completely agree there, and I wouldn't expect most people to part with a rare beer, and say, "just send a box of good locals back", though I have had this happen.

2. Of course this is a real threat, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has already happened to me, or will happen someday. While I'm not fond of the idea of someone flipping a bottle I sent them, it is ultimately their bottle and their decision at that point. If they're going to inflate the value and trade it off for something bigger, then yeah, it's disappointing, but if I didn't lose out on the trade, then it's not my concern. Another point, though - none of the truly generous traders I've worked with, nor any of the people I have been generous towards strike me as the kind of people who would do that. I need no convincing there are people that would and do, but I tend to connect with the more "personal" trades, if you will.

I know nothing is going to change, and I'm not trying to force anyone to change their trading habits. I was simply sharing my experience to show that 1. There are people here who let these high calibre bottles go in simple $4$ trades, and 2. I just want to show anyone who may be doubtful that they have a chance of obtaining certain bottles that I have witnessed it firsthand, and that these secondary values are not a hard and fast rule, and exceptions can and have been made.

I do agree with every point you illustrated though, just for the record.

 

In my initial post, LPK/LPF/LPG were just examples of actual $4$ bottles I have been offered/have offered myself (those being ones offered to me). I think you misinterpreted my statement, and to be fair, I was not very clear about that, so I'll take the blame. What I meant was that I have a Kriek (the only Cantillon bottle I've ever managed to get) and seeing as I have the opportunity to obtain a Lou Pepe, I think I would prefer the LPG (possibly LPF) because A. I like variety, B. I tend to slightly prefer un-fruited lambic/gueuze/wild ales, and C. LPG is a bucket list bottle of mine. Literally. I have a physical list. I'm wasn't drawing any similarity between the two, other than the fact that their both Kriek. I'd like to experience the "unadulterated" base beer, and I'm okay with that, because I still have a Cantillon Kriek, so I can at least enjoy that too, when I decide I want a special (to me) Kriek. "but there's really no place here for someone like that to try to change the whole logic behind limited beer trading." - I disagree on two counts. This is a community first and foremost, and I believe there is a place for everyone here. I'm also not trying to change the dynamic of anything. I'm one man with his own opinions, and I neither desire to, nor have the capability to change anything - particularly something that carries so much backlash with it. No, I'm not trying to change anything. I'm simply trying to speak up and share my opinion on a matter - an opinion I knoe for a fact other people share with me. I don't want to repeat myself, but as I have said before in this thread, the salient point of my initial comment was to let others know that nothing is unobtainable. It can be competitive, cutthroat, disheartening, and often seem like a pipedream - particularly when so many people are so quick to jump in and tell others that they don't have the trading power for a particular beer. I can't do anything to alter the current popular standards. However, if I can just give one person enough hope to write up a trade post and actually manage to get a dream bottle of his/hers, or to a much lesser extent, point out some flaws in the beer auction culture, then that is more than I could ever ask for. I have met some truly wonderful traders, who have helped me out a lot - be it their generosity, or the trade knowledge they have imparted, and all I've ever wanted to do was pay that forward, and enjoy some great beer along the way. Trust me, if I got to bottles of LPK, there is a person in this very thread that would have one on his doorstep 3 days later, and I think he knows I wouldn't ask him for a damn thing for it.

You misunderstood my "local BA coffee stout" comment. It had nothing to do with expecting anyone to trade for it. It was an analogy illustrating hype. Nothing to do with $4$ rare beer trades.

"Ultimately, when I run into these kinds of posts, it's usually when a person that has been unsuccessful in obtaining what they're looking for just wishes people would give them an easier time getting it. Hey, we all wish that.". Well to an extent, you're right. I have 100 beers on my bucket list, and I've barely made a dent. I already know I'll never make any real progress on it. I didn't know that when I wrote it, but I know now. You said it yourself, though. We all wish for an easier time getting to try those beers. This is not, however, the basis behind my viewpoint of insane secondary value. That is more of an issue of ethics, and an inability to understand such an arbitrary system. I get more gratification out of sharing and making friends over the mutual love of beer. I realise I'm in the minority with that mindset, but isn't that what brought us all here to begin with?

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Twice I've traded away a bottle which I have not tried, and I regret both times doing so in-spite the fact that I very much enjoyed what I traded for in return (the two I traded away are Tete de Cuvee b1 and an Ardea Insignis for Chemtrailmix '17 and purple wax Assassin '16). I have not made that mistake since.

 

You will if you stick at it and accept that you will need to accumulate and ultimately offer up higher caliber beer in order to gradually scratch items off your list. We've all had, and have, a list. It's nothing special.

It really isn't arbitrary or unethical, it's just a market. It doesn't exist just to give you a hard time. It exists because these are luxury, scarce products. The sooner you accept that the easier this will be on you.

You're not making yourself sound very charitable with this remark. Painting yourself as the rare, benevolent individual while failing to recognize that many if not most people trading for these beers are doing so with bottle shares in mind. Bottle shares which tend to be a gathering of friends and friends of friends with intersecting interests. I'm not speaking for every trader or every beer ever traded, but it covers a wide variety of trades.

And again, I have to point out, this is a suspect way to go about convincing people to just go on ahead and give up their rarer beers with less consideration for what they get in return. Slipping veiled insults under the guise of an uplifting message of fellowship isn't isn't going to win you any points. It may not seem like it but we've all been where you are in this hobby, so it's really easy to see through.

 

What you describe here is not what is meant by $4$. In considering rarity, the difficulty assumed in obtaining a beer, etc., you are considering secondary value in your trading. And, that is fine.

 

1. We'll just have to agree to disagree then, sir. I'm fine with offering up high calibre beer for high calibre beer, this is not what I take issue with. This is the most fair and even exchange for both parties. Did I give you the impression I'm expecting a charitable handout? I'm fine with parting with a beer that a bought a ticket for, stood in line to get, and paid a premium retail price for, in exchange for a bottle that in drawn to that I cannot normally get, particularly if I have already had the beer that I'm parting with. I don't expect everyone to trade stouts and lambics for brewery-only hops, but there are still people who will, and I'm more than happy to do that.

2. You have your view, and I entirely respect that. I have mine, and I expect you to do the same. Everything is a market if you really want to break it down like that. I just choose to view it as something a little more personal. Demand and scarcity are one thing. 1000% markups are entirely different. Do you realise what B:B:T often demands in equivalent dollar amount? Trading 1:1 with an equally "rare" stout is perfectly acceptable. Trading at the cost of a cheap used car is just silly. I don't think anyone is giving me a hard time. I simply don't have access to beer that can pull huge bottles. That isn't anyone's fault.

3. I'm not trying to. There are other people who share my opinion. I said I'm in the minority of those who look down on profiteering, not that I'm a patron saint of beer. I didn't appreciate you suggesting that I wouldn't be generous if I ran into two LPK, and I felt the need to address that claim. My opinions and practices are not anything special or unique, and I'm not trying to convince you that they are.

4. I'm really not sure where such a breakdown in communication occurred. I would never want someone to trade anything of theirs for something that they don't want, or don't think is fair. What fun is that? There's a difference between trading a big beer at close to $4$ for something you really want and can't just go out and get. I'm guessing you, like many of us, still have a long way to go ad far as getting to try most of your big wants. I think this plays a very significant role here. Most of the people, if not all of the people I've seen, met, or heard of who pay no mind to secondary value generally have been around the block a few times, and are happy to trade beers realistically because A. They've had them before, maybe even countless times, and B. They've reached a point where squeezing every last possible drop of secondary value out of something of theirs just really doesn't benefit them. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do do anything, except perhaps to let some people know that is isn't necessary for them to sell their sole for every beer they want to try, because there are people out there who are willing to just trade. Just good old fashioned trading, without a stock market value analysis of where the beer stands and what it's capable of pulling. That's all. I'm actually rather offended by your "Slipping veiled insults under the guise of an uplifting message of fellowship isn't isn't going to win you any points.", remark. I never intended to insult anyone at all, and if anything, you were the one who approached this conversation in a somewhat hostile manner. Evidently it isn't that easy to see through, because you have entirely missed the point i was trying to illustrate. There is no guise of anything here. This will always be a community to me first and foremost, and if I had the choice to get every single bucket list beer of mine, or get to keep the connections and friendships I have made here, then whales be damned. I have a few rare bottles I have been lucky enough to obtain, and while it's a great privilege, at the end of the day, it's just beer, and it doesn't hold a candle to friendship.

I'm sorry we can't see eye-to-eye on this, but that's just part of the strange beauty of people. We're eaxh entitled to our own individual opinions, and there are no right or wrong answers - just want you believe in and what makes you happy. I certainly don't want this to develop into an argument, and while I respect you and your opinions 100%, I don't see this subject coming to an amicable conclusion. We're just going back and forth picking each other's words apart with no progress, and that isn't a healthy discussion. I'm sorry you misconstrued the meaning behind my comments, and interpreted some kind of insult, which is not my intention. So I'll agree to disagree, and hopefully we can carry on just respecting our opposing opinions. You strike me as a pretty intelligent individual, and while we both might be a little hardheaded in this conversation, i am sure you can respect my opinion, even if you don't agree with it, just as I respect yours. That's all I have to say.

Cheers!

 

I suppose you are right. The two formats can kind of meld together in a way, and in my personal trading experience, generally with more sought-after beers involved, the beer itself is the main gauge of value, and then the ratios discussed generally evolve to agree on a close to $4$ format. You're absolutely right though, retail price aside, there are other factors that go into secondary value, and I certainly don't take issue with that. I've always just considered the majority of my trades $4$ trades, because we always try to come to an agreement where we are trading equal dollar amounts worth of beer. People seem to think I'm referring to $4$ with absolutely zero consideration for what the beer in question is, which simply is not the case, though I see how a lack of specificity could result in that misunderstanding. You highlight an excellent point though.

 

A lot of your commentary is just coming across like your inner monologue regarding how torn up you are about all this and how best to present it in a forum, while twisting yourself into knots trying to make what you really want here sound better than it really is. We all have a lot of feelings around this subject, but we can't spend so much time putting those ahead of the reality of the hobby, and especially expound upon them so in depth in a place like this. Nothing would ever get done, and you'll just endlessly feel the overwhelmingly distraught contempt that you seem to be experiencing the more you post.

Is BBT a beer that you want to try? You seem to be fixated on a very small, select few ultra whales. There are only a few bottles in the beer trading circuit that are in or near that stratosphere right now. And the values always shift over time as new names make the universal white whale list and old ones become more accessible or less desired. If you have difficulty acquiring adequate ammunition to obtain them, what you should put your energy into is looking around for beer festivals where breweries that produce your most sought after beers will be attending or hosting. There's no guarantee you'll get what you're specifically after, but there is a guarantee you will be drinking good beer, and might even unexpectedly cross a few other beers off your list, while also, if travelling, being in good proximity through your travels to other potentially trade worthy bottles and releases.

Personally I don't recommend trading for something like things like BBT, KBBS, and LPK (let's not mention OWK, good god!) unless you have the firepower and are willing to overpay. There's no use getting torn up over it. There's plenty of other great targets in the sea for you to not be so laser focused on the small handful of painfully high valued whales.

I've found trading to be a long term, sometimes slow progression. When you get deep into the trading world, the more involved you get, the climb may simultaneously seem less steep yet more vast in length to your next big target. But when you look back, you realize you got a lot out of it, in that you obtained a lot of other peripheral beer you otherwise couldn't have gotten, some of which was substantially more enjoyable than your more sought after targets. If you don't accept that your beers aren't worth quite as much as the beers you want, or as much as you think they should be, then you'll never realize quite how much you're really missing out on.

 

I agree with you that the profiteering has gotten out of control.

 

Just wondering if anyone knows the approximate trade value of Fundamental Summation.

 

Trying to land a 2019 FR SbLE how far off is Assassin 2019 + W12 750 as a starting point?

 

What is FR SbLE?

 

Four roses small batch limited edition

 

Are you just looking for the 700ml? If so, not that far off. But there was a trade just completed with clover (b1?) + Flora b7, which seems to be Overkill to me. However, that you are including a bourbon in your offer helps.