I had been engaged with beeradvocate user tguyo for almost two weeks concerning a trade from the recent Other Half release for lambic. I went out of my way to secure tguyo's wants at the Other Half Anniversary release, and we had a verbal confirmation that the trade would be good to go for tomorrow morning in person. I have been very thorough with communication throughout the entire process. After a few hours went by, he messages me that he saw someone locally who was able to complete his ISO, and he is backing out of the trade after the pm confirmation hours before. While I didn't get scammed necessarily, it is very poor etiquette to confirm a trade, obtain the users ISO, have confirmation on meeting in persomn, then back out last minute after several days of communication and efforts to meet tguyo's ISO. I would advise if you are planning to trade with this user, proceed with caution as they are not firm with committing to trades 100% that have been acknowledged in writing prior.
First off, tagging @tguyo so he's aware of this thread and can come in and offer his side of the story. Second, even for IP trades, always use the feedback system on here - just makes it cleaner. That being said, based on what you are saying, even though no beer traded hands, with an IP trade, the fact that you bought beers to complete the trade based on your discussions with him, and for him to back out for a (different/better?) offer at the last minute ... to me that qualifies as a bad trader.
OP doesn't appear to have any open trades, why do we indulge these folks that don't use the trade system?
I have not been on here in a while, but I have always submitted these post-trade as I have not been taken advantage of in the past after written confirmation of a trade. It seemed logical to wait until completion to submit that form in case something didn't go right. I was not aware the expectation is to submit that prior to initiating the trade. I have screenshots, as well as 100% positive feedback. I will submit that going forward prior to completion.
If not a Bad Trader, it’s very poor form to back out on a trade, an IP trade on top of that like that, this douchy behavior is more than frowned upon in the community. @dmbforever and @John_M insights are welcome here too.
Sorry to hear OP, but no matter what type of trade, push for the trade request to be used/accepted. It's not going to prevent a bad trader necessarily, but gives you a leg to stand on if something goes awry. While some will argue no beer was lost, etc., move on, but if someone backs out of a trade within a few hours of the meetup after verbally agreeing to it, then that person is garbage ,IMHO. Definitely someone the community would want to be aware of going forward. Also, you had a verbal agreement to trade in person. Your location is CT, his is Netherlands, where were you doing this in person? Then you say he saw someone locally who could satisfy the trade. I'm trying to get a grasp on where all of this was supposed to go down. Makes me wonder if he got it done with someone else on BA or through a different outlet. Also, @tguyo was on last night right around the time this thread was created and he was tagged in it.
I work in Manhattan, we agreed to do the trade here in the AM this morning. I believe tguyo said he went to Other Half and found someone who had his ISO the night before at the brewery, and told me sorry, he traded it and we would be cancelling the prior agreed upon trade.
Sadly, this guy has history, but because good feedback is being left for him, no one would see the yellow or red flags. Older trades, both from August 2018: -Good communication but he cancelled a few days before because something came up that altered his travel plans (IP trade). -unfortunate incident during our trade let to it not happening, but A+ for communication for sure and hopefully we can complete a trade soon Why are users leaving feedback and good feedback at that when a trade was never completed?Users should not be getting trades counted if nothing is being traded. There needs to be another category.
Unfortunately, this sort of behavior has become increasingly common on the trading forum. The perpetrators (who typically "ghost" their previous trading partner once they get a better deal) argue that this really shouldn't be considered a bad trade, as no one is out any beer. They figure that their trading partner still has the beer he planned to trade, so what's the big deal? They can just go ahead and drink it themselves. As a moderator, this isn't how I/we see the situation. My feeling is that if the victim goes out of his way to obtain the trade goods requested by the perpetrator, expending time, money and resources obtaining them, then this is by no means a "victimless crime." So far, we've been handling these situations on a case by case basis. In many instances the victim just wants to wash his hands of the whole affair, and makes a mental note never to trade with the perp again. In other instances the amount of time and effort expended on obtaining the trade goods was so minimal, the victim feels there's no sense making a big deal of the matter (and so they just drop the whole matter). However, if the victim did expend a lot of time, money and resources on obtaining the trade goods, and these are beers he would likely never have obtained otherwise (he obtained them only to satisfy the requirements of his trading partner and had no personal interest in drinking those beers), then I absolutely feel this could qualify as a Bad Trader scenario. Especially in a case like this, where it sounds like the perpetrator has a history of engaging in this sort of behavior.
I entirely agree with everything you said, John but wanted to highlight this paragraph since it’s spot on on many aspects. As in: «oh I didn’t steal anything, the other dude still got his beers and can drink them or trade them with someone else. It’s unfair to call me a Bad Trader and request a ban. » We can’t be lenient here, it’s a different case because it’s an IP trade but it’s very disrespectful to back out/ghost on someone you had planned to trade a few beers with or why not also have a beer during the encounter. it often goes that way in these IP trade situations. Also, good call on the poster above you @MattOC who found that he was a repeated offender of this stuff. Unfortunately he was still showing his 100% perfect trading score which fooled someone willing to trade. Many red flags here.
I am in agreeance with my fellow moderators, and everyone else. Great points and many red flags that are sometimes hard to find when trying to make a trade. I will offer some additional feedback/reiterate for traders to hopefully remember moving forward - ALWAYS use the feedback system when making a trade (IP or shipping), as moderators and traders, this is the "binding" factor that can give us leverage in situations like this. Not that we cant solve matters differently in a case by case situation....it certainly helps justify the cause in our action. It's no different that signing for a house, loan, etc. Its an agreement. Long gone are the days of a verbal commitment, hand shake, and a man's word...unfortunately. There are still people in the world that still follow those principles, but it's a different world. - most of the time, we are trading with complete strangers. (See above) - thoroughly look through their feedback, including positive feedback. Again, these are like Untapped ratings....they can be tainted if you look and read close enough into the feedback. You can find red flags. (See above...complete strangers) - check the bad trader forum to see if your trade partner's name appears in header Lastly- we can only do so much as a moderating team. You are trading at your own risk, unfortunately.
I'm also willing to leave this thread, as a reminder to @tguyo that these types of behavior are still considered bad form and are shady. Hopefully people will look at the bad trader forum before trading with you in the future.
He's on again this morning/afternoon for him. Viewing the Other Half thread. I'm sure if he responds we'll get the old, no big deal, other trader didn't lose anything. Screw the verbal agreement. Mods, once a user is tagged as a BT and or is named in one of these threads, why can't their site abilities be limited until they respond to the thread, etc.? Not sure if something like that is possible and or difficult to implement.
He @tguyo popped back up online a couple days ago after disappearing for weeks when this thread was created.
