Controversial Beer Opinions (Round Two)

Jack, do you know if yeast can amplify particular essential oils or possibly destroy certain oils? Or would it make more sense to assume the yeast is producing esters that support the geraniol flavor and just sort of highlight it?

 

It could easily be that--their yeast interaction with certain hops (or hop oils)--and it's one that you're particularly sensitive to.

 

There is a relatively new concept in brewing called yeast biotransformation. I subscribe to BYO magazine and in a recent issue (May-June 2020) issue there was an article by Dr. Pattie Aron. I provided a link below but the article is not specifically provided but you could obtain a free 14 day trial subscription to read it if you are so motivated. In a nutshell the idea is that a for a combination of certain yeast strains and certain hop varieties the yeast might change some chemical compounds to other compounds. For example in section 2 of the referenced article "Transformation of terpenols and terpenoid esters" is discussed.

https://byo.com/article/biotransformation/

In homebrewing what some folks do is add their dry hops before primary fermentation is complete (i.e., before the final gravity is achieved) to foster biotransformation. The 'trick' here is that this allegedly only works if you have the proper combination of yeast strain and hop variety. I personally have yet to read a technical article which quantifies that yeast strain A will biotransform hop variety B (and C,D,...).

I personally view this whole biotransformation thing as emerging science and I do not take any steps in my brewing to foster this.

I attended a presentation by Ken Grossman at HomebrewCon 2018 (Portland, OR) and he discussed how he acquired the Sierra Nevada house ale yeast strain when he started the business. The story is that this yeast is one of the Ballantine yeast strains. When we homebrewers brew clone Sierra Nevada beers we typically use WY1056/WLP001/US-05. These strains are not genetically exactly the same but they produce similar beers; these strains are all neutral and do not produce a lot of esters typically. Based upon what I know I would not expect that in Sierra Nevada hoppy beers (e.g., SNPA, Celebration, Torpedo, etc.) that yeast produced flavors would be the substantial contributor to beer flavor. In my opinion these beers flavor profiles are dominated by the contributions of the hops.

The best person to provide more definitive information here is Terence (@SierraTerence). Hopefully he will provide additional input.

Cheers!

 

Hmm, what beers from them do you get that rose character?

Maybe Cascade is the common link. I wouldn't be surprised if Sierra Nevada is heavy handed with Cascade in their beers.

 

Pale ale, celebration, and west coast stout it seems central to the flavor for me. Bigfoot it can be present but its not always there and I don't really get it when fresh (but I suspect that the pine resin and citrus rind hop flavors are so strong that it's hard to discern many other subtle flavors)

And then on my revisit to fresh torpedo the other day, after at least a couple years without having one and probably 8 years since drinking one with any attention, it was super strong. To the point that I didn't really enjoy the beer because I find the overly floral flavors seem to have an effect like overly sweet malt bills that just sort of coat your tongue and make the beer start to feel like a chore.

Incidentally, I have been on a way bigger sierra Nevada kick during this shutdown than usual and I've definitely noticed that I don't like to go from pale ale or stout to other beers without making a concerted effort to cleanse the palate. That floral hop flavor just sticks around for me

 

Whatcha been drinking from them lately? Has it been beers like Pale Ale and Stout, but they’re simply one and dones due to the rose character?

And/or other beers, like Summerfest?

 

Its been pale ale and stout, but i don't mean that its one and done, just that I tend to either drink just a few of those beers in a night, or drink those beers last if I'm going to have something else that night. I really enjoy the floral flavor in those.beers (and celebration and when I encounter it in bigfoot) but it is really strong, so I understand why (if you didn't like that flavor) you would have a strong bias against SN

 

I agree with Jack. Our hoppy beers are dominated by the hop characteristics, but I like to point the differences in our draught-style Pale Ale and the bottle conditioned version where I see a little more yeast characteristic coming from the bottle version from the secondary version. They are different recipes but one of the main differences is that increased ester profile. Celebration is one also but it so much less noticeable due to the dry hopping... You really got to look for it.

Sorry, I have been absent lately. We have been extremely busy and I threw a nice camping vacation in there too.

 

What are you doing trying to have a life! We've got beer minutae to parse!
In all seriousness it's been a beautiful river season. Got out for a weekend a few weeks ago and I am hoping we will make it out to the alps again in a couple weeks. Rivers are just about perfect right now.

Hope that you stay busy over there and that 2020 can maybe give us a break on the fire season (no lightning storms for us in June! That's a start)

 

Better than bagging at the Hyvee right?

 

Contract brewers are cowards, buy some friggin tanks!

 

Jack's Abby doesn't market dry hopped PSP as an Italian Pils, but it seems like a lot of other breweries are dry hopping their German pils and calling it an Italian pils. I find that these beers lose some of the edge and bite of the regular German pilsners and are generally worse, though not necessarily bad. This is different from a beer like Luppolo which I feel draws heavily from Tipopils (Oxbow has done many collabs with Birrificio) and has a different lighter, floral quality. I guess my general point is that I am frustrated with brewers taking the lazy route to making "Italian Pils" versus creating a whole new beer that falls in line with how Birrificio does things (and that flavor profile).

I am not a fan of cascade but I do at least like SNPA and Celebration. I generally try to avoid beers with hops I do not like. However, when I do have an IPA where cascade is a dominant flavor, I am reminded why I don't drink beers with cascade. I haven't been able to identify the exact flavor that it imparts that I don't like, but I also haven't really tried to pursue identifying it either since I don't like it.

Do you get a lot of complaints about your housemade ketchup? You're a professional cook so I defer to you, but it seem like a lot of in house ketchups are not that good. I feel like it's hard toe execute given people's expectations of "commercial" ketchup.

 

Maybe you are just not a fan of some of the hops used by some breweries to dry hop their Pilsners? For example, Jack’s Abby is using a relatively new hop variety of Hallertau Blanc for their beer Dry Hops Post Shift. Maybe this hop variety is not in your ‘sweet spot’?

In contrast both Tipopils (Spalter Select) and Luppolo (Tettnanger) choose to dry hop with more ‘traditional’ noble hops.

To use an IPA analogy I am a fan of some IPAs since I enjoy the hops selected to dry hop those beers but other IPAs I am not so fond of them since the hops they use for dry hopping are not favorites for me.

Cheers!

 

Sure, the hop used could be a possibility, though I haven't noted any dislike for Hallertau Blanc in the past. I thoroughly enjoy regular Post Shift. JA does not advertise DH Post Shift as an Italian Pils, so I'm not sure if there are process changes besides the dry hopping. To me, the main difference is that Post Shift loses some of the sharpness, bite, and crispness in favor of a more floral, softer profile in the dry hopped edition.

I mean, maybe this is to simplify what they are to more regular consumers, but I feel like Italian pilsners have been advertised as simply "dry hopped German Pilsners." This suggests that German Pilsners aren't dry hopped (they can be) and that Italian pilsners are not that different from German Pilsners, since there are process deviations that lead to a more differentiated product. This is outlined here on Beervana (which you might have seen): https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2020/5/26/more-to-italian-pilsners

I don't think this is controversial, but I prefer process and intent over style.

 

I have posted numerous times in the past that I am of the opinion there should not be a sub-style term of "Italian Pilsner". Just as you noted above German Pilsners, as brewed in Germany, can include dry hopping. Just adding dry hopping to the process does not yield a new sub-style in my opinion.

In my homebrewing practices I choose to dry hop my Pilsners:

• Bohemian Pilsner: dry hopped with Czech Saaz hops
• Classic American Pilsner: dry hopped with Halletauer Mittelfruh
• 1896 Michelob: dry hopped with Czech Saaz hops

In no way do I consider any of those above beers as "Italian Pilsners".

I would prefer that this silly moniker of "Italian Pilsner" would just go away but in today's hyper competitive craft beer market it seems that every brewery is looking for every little thing (shall I say gimmick?) to distinguish their beers from their competitors. Maybe just a sign of the times?

Cheers!

 

To me, the fact that it seems like a "silly moniker" has more to do with the laziness that goes in describing it as a "dry hopped German Pilsner" versus the actual validity of the style. I think that there are valid process driven differences to qualify "Italian Pilsner" under the greater Pilsner umbrella. However, I feel like calling it "dry hopped German Pilsner" is a disservice to a proper process driven Italian pilsner like Tipo. I understand that marketing and lack of sophistication from your every day consumer could warrant these silly or simplified monikers, but not to me.

 

Of course but you would br surprised not many mostly for kids. I make a smoked ketchup.....

 

Packaging high ABV beers in 16-oz cans is especially stupid. Put the damn beer in a 12-oz container, and preferably a bottle so that you can put a stopper on it if you don't feel like finishing it immediately.

 

Agreed. Beer label immaturity clearly caters to the coddled millennial generation. I'd re-brand those offerings posthaste in a last ditch effort to forever expel self-righteous hipsters from the halls of beerdom.

There, I said it.