German / Imported Märzens

In Bavaria, by law any beer called Märzen has to be at least 13.5º Plato. Elsewhere in Germany it's 13º Plato.

Märzen can come in any colour from pale yellow to near black. Their only common feature is their gravity. There's plenty of evidence in German that this is still the case. One of the best-known examples of Märzem, from Schlenkerla, is dark in colour and smoked. If Märzen isn't just a strength term how can Schlenkerla's Märzen and Ojtoberfestbier both be classified as Märzens?

Festbier - at least the one sold at the Oktoberfest - is a Märzen. Just a Helles Märzen rather than an amber one. The Deutcscher Brauer Bund still classifies Oktoberfestbier as Märzen. I'm inclined to go with what they say.

 

You should try looking in German-language sources.

Oktoberfestbier is classed as a Märzen by the Deuscher Brauer Bund, as this page confirms:

https://www.brauer-bund.de/index.php?id=137

I'm not going to argue with them.

Märzen can come in any colour, from pale yellow to near-black. One of the best-known examples, from Schlenkerla, is both dark in colour and smoked. If Märzen isn't just a strength classification, how can that and Oktoberfestbier be given the same designation as they have almost nothing in common.

Märzen has to be at least 13.5º Plato by law in Bavaria, 13º Plato elsewhere.

 

@patto1ro Sorry, looks like you are correct. I really did try researching it and couldn't find evidence.

But how strict is this? Aecht Schenkerla seems to be lower than 13 plato at only 5.1% abv. That would suggest 12 to maybe 12.5 if less sugar is converted to alcohol.

Also, do people in Germany use the term Marzen, and if so, do they use it for the golden Festbier examples? What I am saying is even if they are technically Marzens, do people call them that? Seems to have become a term for the amber ones.

 

Schlenkerla's site has the Märzen at 13.2 Plato.
https://www.schlenkerla.de/rauchbier/sorten/sortene.html#maerzen

B. United's site lists it at 13.5 Plato but also a higher ABV of 5.4%.
http://www.bunitedint.com/information/brands/description/87/

 

My pic stirred up more talk than I expected, but at least it's on topic since the flagship is a German Märzen. Going back to @FBarber 's question, unfortunately, my side-by-side highlighted the age differences of the two beers that I used rather than any process differences. I bought that bottle at the only place I could. There was a small chance that the bottle wasn't too old, but beggars can't be choosers. Sure enough, the bottle was too old to gain much of anything from the exercise. With the canned beer being unfiltered, the appearance was very different though, with the bottled beer being much brighter. This isn't as expected as it sounds, since there isn't necessarily going to be a considerable difference in appearance between a filtered and unfiltered beer. I didn't get as big of a difference in appearance with their unfiltered Helles.

On the broader topic of their beers being canned here, I'm just repeating myself from other threads, but so be it. Ignoring the (important) issue with certain product lacking a date stamp, I put more trust in the bottled product than the tanker shipped product... because I put more weight on the brewer finishing their process themselves than the storage/transportation benefits of the tanker process. I put absolutely zero weight on any benefits of cans over bottles. I care more about the people and equipment doing the canning/bottling by a huge margin. This isn't a criticism of B. United. Generally speaking, I'm a big fan of their work. I am happy to buy what they've canned regardless. The Schlenkerla beers getting canned are also "unfiltered and unpasteurized" in that format. In doing a side-by-side with the canned and bottled product, I am mainly interested in any differences due to that (but I don't know if the bottled product is pasteurized).

In my own anecdotal experiences, I never got a difference in the smoke level of their Helles when comparing bottles to cans. I have gotten a difference in smoke level throughout all of my entire drinking experiences with that beer. This could be due to batch variation, but it could be due to just me perceiving it differently. Keep in mind that the level of smoke I perceive can radically change from the first sip to the last sip of one beer. Acclimation can be a curse.

Actually, unlike the comments above, I never got much of a difference between the filtered and unfiltered product with one exception: QC. My anecdotal take on the canned Helles was that it didn't seem to hold up as well over time. I had a negative experience with the canned Krausen beer that was worse. Between the lack of filtering and pasteurization, and the canning operation in CT, I can't venture a guess as to the culprit or if it's the confluence of factors.

With the bottles, I don't trust the age. With the cans, I don't trust the process. Either way, I'm still happy to occasionally buy the product because I absolutely love the beer.

 

Chris, thanks for providing that input.

I have only purchased a handful of four-packs from B. United but for the most part I drank their beers fairly quickly. In one instance I did lose track of a can of Tipopils in my refrigerator and I drank that beer several months post purchase. That beer was sub-optimum (the hop aroma/flavor was muted) but at the time I just chalked that up to beer no longer being fresh.

It may be the case that the canning operations at B. United is not optimum. Especially considering the price of their beers that would be (is) an unfortunate situation.

Cheers!

 

I am not trying to make any negative claims about it - just providing my own individual reaction and others should do the same. Given the choice between buying cans with a sticker date on the holder (not the can unfortunately) and bottles, I’d go with the cans.

 

Roger that.

Cheers!

 

I don't doubt you tried researching. But English-language resources on German beer are limited and often wrong. I'm lucky enough to know German pretty well (my wife is German). It gives me access to a lot of information. Plus I'm a weird obsessive who spends his sad, lonely evenings trawling through 19th-century German brewing texts.

Schlenkerla just isn't that highly attenuated. According to their website, it's 13.5º Plato:

https://www.schlenkerla.de/rauchbier/sorten/sorten.html#maerzen

German drinkers aren't really hung up on styles. They just think of it as Oktoberfestbier.

It seems to have mostly been non-Germans associating Märzen with an amber beer. Or maybe even more specifically non-Bavarians.

The whole question of classifying Lager styles fascinates me. The Czech Republic holds the key, I think. Where the full periodic table of strengths and colours still exists.

 

I get it. I love researching too, which is why I was surprised that I have never seen anything referencing Marzens by strength alone. I would say that Marzen now means something different to the international community, which certainly differs from the original German historical context.

I also find the Czech "styles" to be fascinating, as it is basically a matrix of color and gravity. What sucks is that all we get here are the Czech "Pilsners" here, which I know are something like Svetle (Pale) of Lezak (Lager) strength. And I know they don't call them Pilsners, as that means of Plzen. Every once in a while I can find a craft brewer that makes a Tmave (usually of Lager or Export strength), which are delicious. Forgive me if any of my terminology is a little off. Once again, I am using sites that are in English.

 

I only understood German Lager styles after taking a close look at the Czech ones. Which, as you say, are a matrix of colour and strength.

I've been trying to get the BJCP to expand their Czech styles from just Czech Pilsner and there has been some improvement.

I was also crazy enough to teach myself Czech in the 1980s, so I'm fairly OK with their beer terminology.

 

Interesting discrepancy between the English language (where it is listed as 13.2%) and German language page (which lists the 13.5% of the last few years), a harbinger of a drop in original gravity perhaps? They shaved off half a percent from the Helles in the last year too I noticed, while on the other hand they increased it by 1.5% for the Fastenbier. Time marches on I guess.

 

There sure has been improvements - there are now four Czech beer styles in the latest BJCP style guidelines.

I still remember briefly chatting with you while I was leaving Gordon Strong's presentation of a 'first look' of the updated BJCP style guidelines at NHC 2014. IMO the updates for Czech beers in the latest version is indeed an improvement.

Cheers to you Ron!

 

The other thing I observed during my two week vacation in the Czech Republic last fall is that some pubs/breweries will advertise the beers in degrees vs. using the verbiage of Výčepní or Ležák.

For example a lower strength beer would simply be detailed as 10° vs. Výčepní and 12° vs. Ležák.

Below is a photo of the beer menu at Únětický Pivovar. You will take note there is no mention of Výčepní or Ležák.

Na Zdravi



And you can see for their bottled beer they use 10°.

 

I could be wrong, but I though Märzen had to be at least 13.5º in Bavaria.

 

Schlenkerla Fastenbier is a weird thing. Until a couple of decades ago it would have been illegal in Germany as, at 15º Plato, it falls into the gap between Vollbier (11-14º Plato) and Starkbier >16º Plato. Crazily, it wasn't legal to brew a beer between 14º and 16º Plato.

Great beer, mind Fastenbier. Lucky enough to get some Baterischer Anstich in Amsterdam a couple of times.

 

I'm doing my best to encourage improvements. The current leadership of the BJCP is pretty progressive and open to change.

 

Does anyone else feel privileged to be able to observe this discussion among such knowledgeable beer folks?

My only input is that this discussion got me thirsty for a German Marzen/Festbier/what’s ever available and my local had none!

 

Hopefully soon! Right now in MN we have Paulaner, Spaten, Ayinger and Erdinger (which is really a Weizen). Still awaiting Weihenstephaner, Hofbrau (Munchen), Hacker-Pschorr, Hofbrauhaus Freising, Aecht Schlenkerla, and the new Bitburger Festbier.

Also awaiting all the great MN examples (Utepils, Bauhaus, Indeed, Surly, Fair State, Beaver Island) and a few non-MN US ones like Sierra Nevada, Great Lakes, Founders and Millstream.

 

Yeah, Zid, Ron & I are given to long, lonely evenings buried in old brewing manuals just to enlighten everyone.

Oh, wait -- that's just Ron.

Kidding Ron! You're the man.