Experimenting with LoDo: Rolling Updates

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by honkey, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Today I'm brewing the first beers where I'm trying not just to avoid hot side oxygen, but to eliminate it from the process. Although I'm doing this on a 15 BBL commercial system, I thought I would share this here since it comes up from time to time. Some background:

    In 2014 I attended the World Brewing Academy at Siebel in Chicago and Doemens in Munich. Our course curriculum was originally based off of Technology Brewing and Malting (Kunze). I read that book as we went through our lectures each week. In Chicago, one of our teachers (John Mallett) had told us reasons that Bell's was using low oxygen brewing techniques. It had mostly to do with shelf life of the beers. In the textbook, Kunze mentions on several occasions that oxygen is bad for beer at any point other than wort aeration and he does mention that harsh flavors arise from hot side aeration. Then in Munich, we were told by a professor that they experimented with aerating mash and throughout the lauter and they couldn't tell a difference between beers brewed that way and beers brewed with "normal" techniques. I trusted the German professor since they had done a true side by side and I took that to mean that the HSA stuff was insignificant. I've always tried to avoid excess oxygen pickup, but never tried to eliminate it. One thing I didn't think about though was that the German professor didn't say they eliminated oxygen... They brewed one beer with their normal brewing practices and another with a lot of oxygen and I hadn't really thought about that until recently.

    More recently, I started experimenting with my lager techniques since I've brewed lagers basically one way for my entire brewing career... Basically always with Augustiner yeast, a slightly ramped fermentation temperature towards the end of fermentation, 3-4 week lagering period, etc. I have always been very happy with those beers, but then I decided to experiment with pressurized fermentation to reduce esters, other yeast strains, some new malts, natural carbonation, etc. All of that reminded me of a slightly contentious exchange between myself and an inactive forum member (Beerery) and I decided to reach out to him and ask him more questions about some of his yeast handling techniques that I thought would scale well to the commercial system. He's not a guy you can talk to without broaching the LoDo subject. I had also just started reading Kunze again and was reminded of all the times in which Kunze says to avoid oxygen in the mash, lauter, etc. So I thought I'd give it a shot to eliminate oxygen rather than just avoid it's pick up.

    One other thing that lead to this decision to try this: Years ago a mobile canner called me and asked about an observation he had made. A brewery that he was canning for would sometimes have very low dissolved oxygen levels in their brite beer tank and when they did, their canning line would introduce less than 50 ppb total packaged oxygen. If the brite beer tank was above 30 ppb dissolved oxygen though, the canning line would introduce over 100 ppb total packaged oxygen. It appeared that oxygen pick up was exponential. I recently observed the same phenomenon while doing consulting for a brewery. While I was reading Kunze, I was thinking about sulfur is an antioxidant so it would protect the beer in a transfer, but then the sulfur is gone and can't protect the beer any longer. I started wondering if that was the reason we were seeing this oxygen situation. Then I started thinking about the other things that protect beer... ascorbic acid, tannins, polyphenols, yeast... What if we're destroying ascorbic acid and tannins with oxygen in the mash and thus taking away a layer of protection? I can't say I'm educated enough to know if that's even a reasonable question to ask and I don't have a good way to test that theory, but thought that I definitely won't hurt anything by eliminating hot side aeration, in a good situation I'll have a better shelf life, and in the best case scenario, I'll do it and find that the flavor of the beer is improved. If there's no downside and potential upside, might as well try it right?

    Disclaimer: I'm simply going to list observations and beliefs, not setting out to prove anything. My data should be observed as simple data points, not scientific facts and I would hate if anyone tried to use my information as a conclusion to any debate surrounding the topic. I won't be able to do a side by side with a beer brewed using our "normal" techniques. 2 of the 3 beers I'm brewing today (Pils, DDH IPA, and TIPA) are new recipes. DDH IPA will be one that I remember well, but I won't have a side by side blind tasting available unfortunately.

    I started off today by deaerating my hot liquor tank. I boiled it yesterday actually, let it cool overnight, and when I got to the brewery this morning it was at 164F. I measured the DO at .6 ppm (normally we are at 3.5 ppm). I hooked up a venturi aerator inline to the mash tun and connected co2. The water coming out was reading at .1 ppm and I added a small amount of Antitoxin SBT which is a potassium metabisfulfite, ascorbic acid, and gallotannin formula. My mash temperature was 149F with 100% Pils Malt. The DO of the mash was .3 ppm (normally 4 ppm) after mashing in and stirring. I checked the DO in the lauter and it was reading .1 ppm in the receiving kettle. I observed a few things:

    -The clarity of the wort was VERY good. Normally, I think of our wort as being good. This looked like filtered beer though.

    -The wort is possibly slightly paler than normal

    -Tasting the wort was the big surprise. I tasted no astringency at all, and I normally do not drink wort because I don't like the astringency of fresh wort. The sales rep for the company that sells the antioxidant that I used said that we would get more bright grainy flavors with the elimination of oxygen... I thought it was BS to be honest. But upon tasting it, I could see how someone would describe the flavor as brighter.

    -I aerated the wort inline to the fermenter knocking out at 43 degrees F. Active Imperial Organic L02 Fest (Wyeast 2206 equivalent) was waiting in the fermenter. The wort was aerated to 10 ppm and 1 hour later, the DO was reading .8 ppm suggesting that the yeast has nearly reduced all the oxygen in the hour since knocking out.

    I just started the second batch of the day, DDH IPA. It's a hazy with flaked oats and flaked wheat. I've observed the same basic things... slightly lighter color than I'm used to. Better clarity (though with the oats and wheat, it's not great clarity), and a less astringent wort flavor.

    I'll be updating this thread as the beers progress with my thoughts and impressions. Feel free to ask questions.
     
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  2. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Can you please explain what’s going on here? That is, why the reduction in DO? Does the CO2 drive it out? Thanks!

    Looks like the beginning of an excellent thread. I look forward to reading more! Cheers!
     
  3. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Yeah, the idea is that I’m trying to scrub out the last little bit of oxygen. There’s splashing in the mash tun so the sulfites are keeping us from going back up high, but I wanted to make sure the water was as low as possible so the sulfite wouldn’t have to do much work
     
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  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Subscribed.
     
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  5. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I forgot to list the recipes:

    Pils is 100% Weyermann Extra Pale Pils Malt. I used Bravo hop extract to get us to 18 IBUs and a whirlpool addition (most homebrewer's equivalent of a 20 minute addition) of 1.5 lbs/bbl of French Strisselspalt. I will dry hop with .75 lbs/bbl of French Barbe Rouge. Fermented with Imperial L02 Fest at 44 degrees, spunding, and naturally carbonating.

    DDH IPA is mostly Maris Otter with Flaked Oats and Flaked Wheat. 3 lbs/bbl of Citra and Amarillo in the whirlpool. 4 lbs/bbl dry hop with Mosaic, Comet, Citra, and Amarillo. Fermented with Imperial A38 Juice.

    TIPA is the same malts as IPA, but more and dextrose added to help dry it out. 4 lbs/bbl Citra and Comet in the Whirlpool. 6 lbs/bbl dry hop with Strata and Citra. A38 Juice for yeast.
     
  6. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,958) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah

    I just wanted to say that this is an interesting idea and I appreciate your efforts. I really appreciate this disclaimer. When I read it, I immediately thought about drops of olive oil and how one tiny "study" used up so much time on brewing forums 10ish years ago.

    Looking forward to your "results".
     
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  7. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Those are really large WP charges for a commercial system! At least compared to what I’ve seen. Your boil temp is a little lower since you’re a bit higher in elevation. Are you lowering any further through cooling or dilution with cold water for WP?

    At your elevation do you need to boil Pils malt any longer due to the lower boiling temp?
     
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  8. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    A lot of commercial brewers don’t do whirlpool (or any hot side) additions on their hazy IPA’s these days. I think you miss out on a “full” hop flavor if you brew that way. For the Pils, that’s a pretty big whirlpool addition, but it’s sort of taken from what I was told Augustiner does with their pils which I love... basically a hopbursted Pils at 33ish IBU. Normally my bittering addition is smaller or nonexistent but for this beer, I wanted a sharp, fast bitterness that vanishes as quick as it comes. I don’t lower temps for my whirlpool.

    I don’t do an extended boil but for beers with Maris Otter, I’ll start my boil timer immediately when the boil starts and for Pilsners, I’ll wait until I have a full hot break to start the timer.
     
  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I've been trying to get the O2 out throughout the process. To get that bright clean malt flavor one experiences from the technically advanced German breweries while drinking in Germany, it needs to be done.

    Schönram isn't that big, but they use DO water. Sierra Nevada uses DO also.
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Jeff, have you noticed any differences in the sensory qualities of your ales (e.g., IPAs, Trappist/Abbey Ales, English Ales,...)?

    Cheers!
     
  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    For beers with Pale ale malt or darker, it is not as important to me. The compound that oxidizes is destroyed by higher kilning temp.

    The British breweries I've visited are not low O2.

    Sierra Nevada is low O2 for everything. Bell's is not low O2 on the hot side as far as I know. Bell's has great cold side processes, the run charts I saw on a tour showed 20 ppb or less TPO.
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Jeff, which compound(s) are you referring to here? Is it lipoxygenase (LOX)?

    Have you ever brewed using LOX-less Pilsner Malt? For example:

    https://www.morebeer.com/products/viking-pilsner-malt-55-lb-sack.html
    Do you pick up something 'off' in the Bell's beers that feature Pilsner Malts (e.g., Lager of the Lakes, Quinannan Falls)?

    Cheers!
     
  13. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    LoDo in denver speak is lower downtown. I was confused. Carry on
     
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  14. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes LOX.

    I've never used Viking Malt. You?

    Bell's Lager of the Lakes exhibits herbstoffe, i.e. bitter stuff. Q-falls not so much as it has a lot of hops that cover that up.

    I seem to be sensitive to this off bitter flavor. My wife seems to be blind to it, in spite of having a great palate.
     
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    No, I have never brewed with LOX-less Pilsner Malt.
    Another enigma of the HSA dilemma.

    In a PM I discussed with Weedy (@honkey) the need for an organoleptic assessment via a trained team via blind taste testing here. Folks (such as yourself) will make assessments and then others (e.g., Susan) will have differing assessments. Over a team an averaged assessment can be achieved.

    Well, I will read with interest what 'results' are reported in this thread.

    Cheers!
     
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  16. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Back in 2014, John had told our class that Bell’s was eliminating hot side aeration with a nitrogen purge on the hot side vessels. Whether or not they deaerate their strike water, I don’t know.
     
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  17. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    They have DO water, but that is used to push beer around the brewery, not for brewing water.

    They do have a GEA wet mill, those have N2 purge as an option.
     
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  18. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Was anyone else confused about the meaning of DO water? Dissolved oxygen water has very different implications from de-oxygenated water. I knew from context what was being discussed but hadn't put specific meaning to the initialism. Carry on.
     
  19. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    @honkey, is the Antitoxin SBT available to homebrewers?
     
  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    And now that I am clued into some of the language of this discussion (post 18), I'm going to venture a guess that we are talking about an antioxin and not an antitoxin.
     
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