Experimenting with LoDo: Rolling Updates

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by honkey, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    I was anti-HSA concerns for a long time. It wasn't until recently that I was looking for minor improvements to beers that I believe to be of very high quality that I started considering it again.
     
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  2. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
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    Amazing what a little humility will get yah isn’t it.
     
  3. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    It's been 6 days since I brewed these 3 beers. The Pils is the one that I'm most interested in since it seems to me that it is the one most likely to display a difference (if any exists). It is now getting close to terminal gravity at 1.016 (Forced fermentation test showed that it should finish at 1.009) so I expect it to be at terminal gravity by Friday. This is a little bit of a slow fermentation because I'm fermenting at a pretty low temperature (45 degrees right now, dropping to 43 today). I had pitched at 43 and let it get to 48 degrees by the next day and dropped it back to 45. I should have let it stay at 48 for 2 days to really get going before dropping the temp back down.

    Smelling and tasting the sample today, I couldn't tell a whole lot about whether or not the final beer will display differences from what I'm used to, but I can say that it is smelling great and tasted "like a beer that someone else would brew." I've found myself using that descriptor a lot lately actually with all the different lager techniques we've been trying. The beer, even still being sweet, is very "clean" and I'm not getting any sulfur aroma at all actually which was a surprise.

    The two hazy IPA's are done fermenting and have been dry hopped for 2 days now. At this point, I'm getting much more of the "bright" hop flavors that I normally expect to disappear with these hops during conditioning. I am hopeful that we will be able to keep those aromas in the beer as right now, both of them have a great mango/papaya flavor going on. I'll be doing diacetyl tests over the next two days and I hope to be packaging those beers on Sunday.
     
  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Why so low, and why go up to 48 and then back down to 45?
     
  5. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    The old school way of fermenting lagers typically called for a low temperature pitch, (42F) with a rise to 48F, and then a slow steady drop back down until diacetyl reduction was complete and then cold crash the rest of the way. My hope was to suppress esters as much as possible using that method. In addition, my fermenters are rated for 15 psi, so I wanted to be able to spund to 15 psi and achieve a full 2.7 volumes of co2. The cool temperature makes the higher carbonation volume possible
     
  6. JuliusPepperwood

    JuliusPepperwood Initiate (0) Jul 21, 2013 North Carolina

    I've never understood hot side aeration concerns, not that I purposefully aerate on the hot side. But my thinking is if O2 is introduced to the wort, either on purpose or by accident, the boil will de-gas the wort and remove any gas in suspension. And then you're going to add O2 post-boil anyways so if you did have O2 in the wort preboil, your only adding more.

    Here is an interesting experiment by Brulosphy:

    http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
     
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  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    That is not how it works. When O2 is introduced on the hot side (e.g., during mashing) it will foster chemical reactions (i.e., oxidation) to form certain compounds. Once this has occurred these compounds will not be 'de-gassed'. Any oxygen that is still in solution as a gas as O2 (i.e., that has not combined with other compounds) will be degassed during the boil.

    Some of those compounds created by oxidation are carbonyls and the yeast during a healthy fermentation will process those compounds.

    Chemical reactions do indeed occur during HSA/HSO but the $64,000 question is whether this occurrence will be noticeable in the resulting beer. The wort during LoDo brewing will indeed be different from the wort of 'regular' brewing but will the resulting beers be noticeably different to your palate?

    Cheers!
     
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  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Certainly any O2 that has not yet reacted with compounds in the wort will be boiled off. But the boil can't do anything for what's already been oxidized.
     
  9. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't have many lager fermentations under my belt, but whenever I have had them in the mid 40s (which has only been ~2x), I didn't seem to get any fermentation, confirmed by hydrometer checks on or about day 5. I've gotten in the habit of starting them warmer (mid 50s) and ramping up gradually. Everything has seemed OK. But maybe I've had some esters that I just haven't noticed.

    Also seems strange to me that you are reducing temperatures until diacetyl reduction is complete. What's with that?
     
  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,647) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Some that I know point out that the Brülosophy experiment was flawed in a couple of aspects.

    No treatment of the strike water to de-gas it.

    Maris Otter will not have the LOX (see posts above).

    When brewing a British beer with their malts I don't worry about HSA. When brewing a Helles, Pils, Festbier, or other all Pils malt beers I do.

    The research on HSA was done in Europe, as they brewed beers that benefited from eliminating it.

    One German brewer I talked to said that many smaller breweries have a house flavor that is due to HSA. They live with it.
     
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  11. wasatchback

    wasatchback Pooh-Bah (1,574) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
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    It depends on what yeast you use and how much you pitch. There are certain strains that will easily ferment in the mid 40s of you pitch enough yeast. 2206 is one of them. The 34/70 derivatives (maybe not the dry yeast) will as well.

    Stepping the yeast down after a specific attenuation is pretty traditional. I know Bierstadt does it that way for instance. Lager yeast has the ability to clean up after itself all the way down to near freezing, as long as you don’t shock it. Also if you pitch enough yeast at cold temps there should barely be any diacetyl to clean up.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe stepping the temp down after a specific attenuation but while fermentation is still active helps to retain a lot of the aromatic compounds from the malt among other things. I always wondered if it also helped to minimize the amount of yeast carried over into the lagering tanks but I’d guess that would depend on process. If you’re spunding in primary then transferring or transferring then spunding? Or krausening?

    I’ve listened to Bill and Ashleigh at Bierstadt explain their process but I don’t think they stated specifically at what time they’d transfer to their horizontal tanks. I know they mention and I’ve heard other traditional brewers mention holding for a week around 37/39 before continuing down to 30. That week around 39 is essentially their “diacetyl rest” or cleanup phase it seems.
     
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  12. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Thanks, there's clearly a lot for me to learn about lagers.
     
  13. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    I think it's cool that the Brulosophy stuff is out there, but personally, I don't trust their experiments and I think even the author has said before that what they offer is data points, not conclusions. As Jack mentioned, it's not about removing oxygen, it's about limiting the oxidative effects before the boil ever starts.

    I think I'm going to have to rethink my high pressure fermentations. My first pressurized fermentation was 5 psi and I didn't notice much of a difference in the speed of the fermentation. My next pressurized fermentation was 10 psi and that one I thought was slow because I was using a new yeast strain that we had no data on and I was fermenting too cool. Another one was 15 psi and was pretty normal with Augustiner yeast at 54F. However, this fermentation is going slow at 15 psi and 45F. It took off quickly and I pitched plenty of yeast (2.5mil/mL/P) with good aeration and the yeast was finished propagating just a day before I pitched it, so it was good, fresh yeast. It looks now like I'll hit terminal gravity either tomorrow or Monday for a 10-11 day primary fermentation. I don't think that's a bad timeline in normal circumstances, but I would have expected 6-8 days total at this pitching rate. These last couple days, it's just been crawling so I haven't dropped the temperature any lower than 45F as a result.

    That said, the Pils is at 1.012 right now. I would normally expect this to be the time of displaying the most sulfur before it starts to dissipate, but the sulfur level right now is low and would be perfectly acceptable in a finished beer. I ran my gravity test through a filtration flask to remove some of the yeast for a more accurate taste test. I'm real excited about this Pils. It's going to be dry hopped tomorrow with Barbe Rouge. Right now, it has a very soft mouthfeel, the Pils malt displays absolutely no grainy astringency. The whirlpool hops taste very bright and floral. The bitterness level might be a little bit low, but I normally expect the bitterness to pop better when the beer is clear and carbonated. I don't perceive any esters and I think that it will display the "crisp" aspect that I've been aggressively pursuing in my lagers.
     
  14. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    I think the most common "traditional" way of using lager tanks calls for moving the beer when there is still a small amount of fermentation left. Personally, I like to get passed a diacetyl test and get the beer cold crashed before transferring and I just spund in the primary fermenter. Then I push over with co2 rather than a pump into a purged lager tank. One of the things to realize when using lager tanks is that when they were invented and the procedures for them were perfected, CCV fermenters didn't exist. Unitanks can be a perfectly acceptable 1 tank method for producing equally high quality lagers as using lager tanks. Arguably, it's a better method because you don't have any oxygen intro in the transfer to the lager tank. Lager tanks really just speed up the process and free up the fermenter to get the next beer going. If I was a lager only brewery that needed to maximize production, I would want 3 lager tanks for every 1 fermenter. At my new brewery, we will be using unitanks without lagering tanks, but we are also getting more fermenters than we really need so that we can hit our production goals with ease. We are doing that in part because of the visual appeal for customers that will see 8 fermenters in a straight line creating a "dramatic" backdrop for our event space.
     
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  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Weedy, that is a new hop for me so I had to research it:

    “Hop Description

    Developed in Alsace, France, this aroma variety features notes of citrus fruit and fine red berries to bring a new sensory experience to your brew. Kumquat, orange, lime, redcurrant, strawberry, and raspberry are all represented in Barbe Rouge’s delicate aromatic attributes.

    Aroma Profile

    Citrus, Berry, Floral”

    https://crosbyhops.com/shop-hops/hop-catalog/barbe-rouge

    That is an intriguing description, especially the aspects of kumquat, strawberry and raspberry. Have you used this hop before (e.g., dry hopping)? Sound like a good hop for modern day IPAs.

    Can you please explain your dry hopping procedure? When/how do you add the hop pellets? What temperature? Contact time? Etc.

    Cheers!
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I can ‘testify’ that it does indeed provide for an exciting effect. I had goosebumps from standing in the lagering room (unitanks) during my tour of Únětický pivovar in Únětice, CZ:

    [​IMG]

    The other ‘benefit’ of that standing next to those tanks was it increased my thirst level:

    [​IMG]

    Na Zdravi
     
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  17. honkey

    honkey Maven (1,350) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
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    This is my first time using it personally, but I've been keeping my eye on it for years and sampling beers with it. At CBC in 2018 there was a booth that had it in a light pale ale. I would use the descriptors strawberry, currant, and raspberry. I don't get the citrus descriptors in the beers I've had with it. I think it could be good in modern IPA's, but it does still have a strisselspalt like earthiness. Similar to how hull melon, mandarina bavaria, and hallertau blanc all have fruity flavors, but they still display their noble background.

    This beer is being marketed as an Italian Pilsner with the disclaimer that if we're brewing an "Italian" Pils it won't just be a German style Pilsner marketed as something new. It's also being released side by side with our new Sub-Saharan West African Pils... Hopefully people appreciate the joke ;p

    I dry hop on the day that I expect the beer to hit terminal gravity when I dry hop Pilsners. I just drop the pellets through the dry hop port at fermentation temperature (in this instance 45F), spund, and dump hops after two days, hopefully being the same day that we are passed a diacetyl test and ready to cold crash.
     
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Well, I laughed out loud when I read this.:grin:

    Cheers to you!
     
  19. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I actually want to know what a Sub-Saharan West African Pils might be.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

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