Biotransformation DH vs post-terminal DH

I think the answer to how to optimize hop aromatics is going to be "it depends."

• On the hops and yeast - will the combination create any "juicy" biotransformation products.
• How potent the hops are in terms of releasing aromatics that persist
• On how fermentation takes place after dry hopping 1-2 days in -- dependent on yeast vigor (lots of variables there) and wort composition (was it a high gravity or low gravity beer).

I think the number of variables makes it difficult to evaluate. I never finished reading Scott Janish's New IPA book, but that might be a source to turn to find an answer (but probably not the answer).

But your issue is oxidizing the snot out of things, so you'll do well to look into ways to minimize that, regardless of when you hop.

 

From my readings all indications is that the biotransformation effect is variable: dependent on specific yeast strain and hop varieties.

Another consideration is that by adding the dry hops early (e.g., 1-2 days in) that the outgassing of CO2 that occurs during active primary fermentation will 'scrub out' hop aromatics which means you will have lesser amounts of aromatics in the finished beer. I suppose you could add more hops at the end of primary fermentation to compensate?

Cheers!

 

I am aware of significant research in a large scale controlled environment using scientific testing, procedures, and evaluation - that biotransformation is more theory than sensory/measurable phenomenon. The results were not inconclusive, but rather that biotransformation isnt a thing. Brewers have long speculated both ways, but the study found there is no chemical or sensory difference.

That being said, i havent been able to shake it as part of my brewing process. I still deploy a hop charge with active fermentation is still occuring and again after ive dropped the yeast and lowered temp.

 

Most commercial brewers will crash and salvage the yeast for reuse before adding the DH charge as an economic measure.

 

Link?

 

I cant...i wasnt given permission to share specifics so I wont merely out of respect. But the testing was controlled, reliable, and done by a commercial facility specializing in such with brewing expertise. The goal of the experiments was to determine if biotransformation was real and a worth-while step. At the time many many breweries were experimenting with the concept. The findings were conclusive that it isnt a real thing.

I wouldnt go as far as calling it detrimental, but moreover as a waste of resources. If anything, you lose volatile aromas by way of blowoff (that can be limited to a degree by way of spunding valve). And also degrade your yeast for reharvest. One can do it, but its not improving your final product.

 

Scott Janish's blog and book cite peer reviewed studies that conclude the opposite. And they're not secret. Just sayin'

 

I dont mean to be secret, I just wasnt given expressed permission to link the data. And frankly i do not care even 1% whether you believe me or not. In fact, its significantly less than 1%. (Much much much closer to 0%). You are a full stranger to me and have zero impact on my brewing processes, findings, philosophies, or do you have any awareness of the experiments. Why would i be slightly concerned if you believed me? I was answering the OP. You do what you do, i both support you and dont give the slightest shit at the same time.

I have communicated directly with Mr. Janish on the findings and application, and thus not heresay or speculation. I had mentioned, i still havent shook it in my process (and neither has he), although the data strongly indicates we are wasting resources.

 

I agree, I’m not a data guy or a scientifical one either. Just a hillbilly who makes beer when ever one else makes shine lol. But I’ve tried with my equipment both ways of dry hopping and I prefer doing both. For me just DH at the end it smelled great but I didn’t taste it. Doing a DH in just the being of fermentation it doesn’t smell good. Doing both it hits the spot for my belly. But let’s all just agree to drink brown ales and move on with it

 

I've only done a few NEIPA's so far but have had good hop saturation and aroma dry hopping using this method (24 min mark):

I use a Fermonster with a drilled lid, with gas, liquid posts and air release. Some concept as a fermzilla just cheaper. Hang the hops in the top of the fermenter above the wort using a sanitized Lowe's paint strainer mesh, and some earth magnets. I will ferment, diacetyl rest, soft cold crash to 55-60 and then dry hop one or two loads of hops by releasing the magnets. This is all done under pressure, by adding a spunding valve towards the end of fermentation. The pressure helps prevent oxygen suck back when soft cold crashing. So if you prevent oxygen suck back, and hang your dry hops in the fermenter early you can get the benefits of the post fermentation dry hop without opening the fermenter and oxidizing your batch. This also cuts back on hop burn making it drinkable sooner once it's carbed up. There are some other tips in that video for getting good results.

There's also some good points in this recent article about dry hopping, and results of early/late dry hopping: https://hazyandhoppy.com/everything-i-learned-from-1-year-of-brewing-new-england-ipas/

 

Has anyone tried dip hopping. Scroll to bottom. https://beerandbrewing.com/gearhead-hop-it-like-its-hot/

 

Dip hopping just sounds like a way for larger breweries to do lower temp whirlpooling without the necessary equipment to do so. On a Homebrew scale it’s much easier to lower temps quickly.

Pretty sure I’ve explored just about every dry hopping method there is in the last few years. Adding hops with the yeast, during the first few days, at the tail end, after terminal but at ferm temps, after soft crashing to remove yeast and anywhere from 55-70 degrees, and lately cold hopping for a short time at low temps. Also recently been exploring some of the most biotransfornative brewing yeasts on the market as determined by a study released last year. Namely wlp023 and wlp540.

After probably 200 or so different beers (all in SS Chronicals) the best results have always been from soft crashing to remove yeast and then dry hopping a bit colder to prevent hop creep. As long as you can keep O2 pickup down it seems to deliver the most impact per oz of hops. From both a flavor and aroma standpoint. It tends to be more try to type hop character as well. Less generic “fruit” and more nuance with more depth. I’ve tried revisiting different methods since my process has improved but still end up preferring the soft crash, coldish temp method.

I do remember hearing the brewer from Schells talking about the Kellerpils they make now and how they add a dry hop of Callista into the fermenter before yeast pitch or right after and how it integrated the flavor into the beer better than all other dry hopping trials they did. I’ve had plenty of that beer and would agree it’s crazy how well integrated the hops are. Callista is a low alpha hop however. I’d be hesitant to add a high alpha/high oil hop early into fermentation as you run the risk of adversely affecting yeast health and fermentation.

 

Have you noticed any differences in one or two dry hop additions? Any temp give you the best results?

I've got a citra/nelson/amarillo going right now where I just let it soft crash for 24 hrs at 58F before adding any hops. Then Ill be adding two dry hop additions at 58F separated by 12 hours, left in for 48 hours before kegging.

 

Are you at liberty to say how you became aware of this study?

 

Yes, i am a commercial brewer. And my good friend operates the facility that conducted the study. The facility is a contract brewery carrying overflow from some of the nations best brands. The contract facility w its most impressive lab was tasked w determining if biotrans was real or theory. (And thus to keep it or remove it as part of replicating these national brewery recipes).

For example if alchemist cant keep up w demand for Heady or Focal, they contract this place to brew it to specs. Brewers have long speculated whether biotrans is real and therefore decided to settle it. It was useful as the contract facility (and brewer) would know if it was a neccessary or discardable step.

I myself did not request the study. But have had multiple in-depth conversations on and was privy to the results.
VikeMan asked me to link the findings, which i havent been given permission to do (it wasnt my paid commission to share openly).

But im comfortable sharing the ultimate findings is that there is no sensory or chemical difference in the end results.

Janish is a proponent of layering whirlpool hops and some fascinating data regarding enyme enhancement of hop thiols that you would never think would exist. Like unlocking tremendous character with a mixture of a specific enyzme and aged saaz in the whirlpool. But that is another conversation.

 

@Brian29, thank you for sharing what information you can share.

I also appreciate the input of "For example if alchemist cant keep up w demand for Heady or Focal, they contract this place to brew it to specs."

I was heretofore unaware that The Alchemist contract brewed any of their beers. Do you happen to know how long this contract brewing relationship has been going on for?

Cheers!

 

No no! Im sorry for any confusion. I randomly selected The Alchemist as an example. I have no knowledge if or not that Mr. Kimmich does or doesnt contract any brands. My fault, i should have been more clear.

 

I am pretty sure the Alchemist would never allow any of their products to be contract brewed. They would shut down first.